What? Two film critics who may not actually recommend PROJECT HAIL MARY? It’s true folks, in this massive episode we go in-depth into the pitfalls PROJECT HAIL MARY falls into and recommend some alternatives, namely: E.T., TITANIC, SILENT RUNNING, THE DAY AFTER (TOMORROW), THE CAT FROM OUTER SPACE, LIFEFORCE, MELANCHOLIA, MY NEIGHBOR TOTORO, THE DAY THE EARTH STOOD STILL, SOLARIS, CONTACT, I, ROBOT, DARK CITY, KNOWING and even THE OMEGA MAN. We hope you enjoy.
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Jett Loe (00:00.142)
I got a little thought experiment, I'm gonna do that and then your response and then we'll do the theme music, right? Okay, all right, you ready? Three, two, one. Dear listeners, Gareth, please indulge me here. Please indulge me, which I know you do anyway, but thank you. Before we run the theme music and when we start the show proper, I wanna do a little thought experiment here. I want to imagine in this thought experiment that time has shifted.
Gareth (00:04.048)
Yes, Yeah.
Gareth (00:15.824)
Willing to indulge, willing to indulge.
Gareth (00:21.158)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (00:28.958)
that maybe we had social media back in the 70s or maybe the film I'm going to talk about shifted into our time. I'm talking here, imagine I'm taking my kids to see Disney's 1978 family friendly space romp, The Cat from Outer Space. It's about a regular human interacting with an advanced space alien and it's got Rodney McDowell in it. And you know, it's okay, it's The Cat from Outer Space. It was...
Gareth (00:33.33)
Mm.
Gareth (00:50.962)
Is it about a literal cat? Is it about a literal cat or is that like slangy cat? Like, you know, he's a cool cat.
Jett Loe (00:57.186)
like was made in 1968 and there's some sort of Black Panther reference there and it's directed by Robert Downey Sr. Yeah, he comes from outer space. It's it's ET. There's no ET without the cat from outer space. The cat, comes...
Gareth (01:01.106)
Yeah, but I don't know. I haven't seen the cat from her. Is it a literal feline cat?
Gareth (01:12.228)
Is it like an Earth cat that was in space or is it an indigenous space cat?
Jett Loe (01:17.432)
He's from outer space. This isn't like the scene with James Kirk and the ocean scientist and she goes, you're from outer space and search for it. He goes, no, no, I just work in outer space. I'm from Iowa. Okay, this is derailing. From outer space. I don't know what the feline, okay, look, here's the thought, bear with me.
Gareth (01:19.6)
Huh. They have.
Gareth (01:24.114)
Yes. Right. So there is a cat from another planet.
Okay, okay. I just, I want to catch up.
Jett Loe (01:40.974)
Yeah, you want to cat up is what you want to do there. Oh gosh, a lot of dad humor. Okay, look, look, we got to get to the show. We're going to talk.
Gareth (01:43.07)
no. dear. Yeah. Wow. Let's pause. Let's pause. I was bailing your bad cat joke out there.
Jett Loe (01:51.649)
Let's let's imagine Cat from Outer Space, right? I take the kids to see Cat from Outer Space, moderately budgeted, low budget Disney film and did okay in Box Office 1978. And you're watching, you know, that's fine, it's Cat from Outer Space. And then imagine coming home, I come home, I get on the social medias and all my algos, all the threads, all the bits of the business on the Facebooks and the threads and the whole.
Gareth (01:58.727)
Yes. Yes.
Jett Loe (02:19.842)
the whole scroll, they're all saying, my God, the cat from outer space. I've seen it three times already. You got to see it in IMAX, you know? my God, the cat from outer space. Can you believe that when the cat levitated, it was done practically. He was on wires. This is filmmaking magic. This is, it's March, but it's already, it's the film of the year, the cat from outer space. I would begin to doubt myself and my filmic taste, or I would also wonder, wait a minute, like, did Disney pay?
meta to like flood the algorithm with a positive mentions of the cat from outer space or people just trying to get on the cat from outer space bandwagon and saying they've seen it a bunch of times that what now they're talking about a cat from outer space franchise and TV show and spinoffs. I'm not talking about the cat from outer space here because project Hail Mary.
Gareth (03:08.338)
surprise! you had me on the edge of my seat.
Jett Loe (03:12.448)
All right, let's start the show.
Jett Loe (03:17.326)
Okay, we start the show and whenever you're ready,
Gareth (03:21.402)
I
Jett Loe (03:23.544)
Cat from outer space.
Gareth (03:25.17)
Well, I want to welcome you, dear listener, to episode 325 of the Film Talk. It's one big conversation about, what do you call it, the art and the meaning of movies. I'm Gareth Higgins.
Jett Loe (03:39.778)
I'm Jet Lo thanks for tuning in folks today we're doing that big baffo smash hit family friendly colorful space adventure about a regular human interacting with an advanced space alien project Hail Mary for folks are not familiar with the plot do you want to tell them what the deal is Gareth?
Gareth (03:56.529)
Yeah, this is based on Andy Weir's novel. He also wrote The Martian that Sir Ridley made into a big movie with Matt Damon and everybody else a few years ago. This film is directed by Lorden Miller behind the wonderful Lego movie from a few years back as well. What you have is a crisis where these
these like entities are eating the sun, not the tabloid newspaper in Britain, although we'd be grateful if it was eaten and disappeared. They're eating the sun and that's bad for people on earth. And in a few decades, there won't be any people on earth. so Sandra, Sandra Huler, who is an extraordinary actor, somehow is in...
Jett Loe (04:43.566)
teleported in from a much better film.
Gareth (04:45.614)
from from anatomy of a murder and what do you what do you what do do you call what's the jonathan glazer one
Jett Loe (04:54.584)
Zone of interest.
Gareth (04:55.75)
the zone of interest to be in charge of fixing things. And I...
guess what happens next is the greatest endorsement for the value of an unpublished PhD thesis in the history of cinema because Dr. Grace, Ryan Gosling, is the only person who knows how to fix the entities that are going to eat the sun. And so he gets sent into outer space to see if he can fix it. And I believe we have a clip.
Jett Loe (05:28.238)
We do have a clip, folks, if you are interested in watching Project Hail Mary, I would avoid spoilers. I mean, it's kind of impossible to avoid spoilers because if you've seen a film, then you know what's gonna happen in this movie. If you've seen the space films, even like the Captain Marvel space, you mentioned Lord and Miller, I mean, who did such great work in community sort of creating pastiches, and this film is a pastiche, but we gotta, so there's spoilers here. In this clip, Dr. Grace,
Gareth (05:44.018)
You
Jett Loe (05:56.399)
is interacting with a space alien called Rocky and they've been basically texting, chatting with a text-based interface over time. And our hero, Grace, decides that, it'd great if Rocky had a voice, which leads to some comedy bits of business. Let's listen in.
Gareth (06:15.825)
Ahem.
Jett Loe (06:18.88)
Okay, whenever you're ready.
Gareth (06:20.017)
Okay. And that is project Hail Mary. Why are we talking about it? Well, first of all, I...
I think that this is intriguing because it's a huge hit. It's a big substantial work. A lot of effort has gone into this. It's not what they call a franchise. It is based on pre-existing IP and it's based on a novel. So let's not get ahead of ourselves. It's not entirely original. And I think, Jett, you're absolutely right. If you view it as a pastiche, you may be more likely to enjoy it than if you're expecting something entirely
original. The other reason, more interesting reason for our purposes I think, is that the conversation about the film that's happening on social media and so on sometimes touches on deeper themes that I think the film wants to think that it's addressing and it may or may not be actually addressing. And so I hope we're going to have a conversation about what Project Hail Mary does well and why it seems to be attracting so much attention and
what it might be missing. That's where I'm coming from, my dear friend.
Jett Loe (07:31.031)
No, hear you. You know, for me, don't get me wrong. Maybe this film is just not for me. I'm wondering the more that I think about, and this just occurred to me when I heard you speak, Gareth, talking about what a success this is. Maybe this is like the Titanic. Maybe there's a certain demographic, if you want to use that word, not to turn people into metrics.
But how do you put a metric to art, right? Like the Academy Awards. But maybe it's like the Titanic. There's people that love this movie. Maybe they really are seeing this over and over and over again. For me, this film was all about the avoidance of pain. It is like oxycodone. You know, I broke three ribs recently. They put me on the pills. And that's what I felt like watching it. You never feel the stakes or you never feel loss in this film. And when I was watching it again, as Gareth said, it's based on a really popular book. So maybe this is the structure of the book, but I couldn't help think, dear listeners, Gareth,
watching this about the structure of the film with the flashbacks because there's never any sense of loss because we keep flashing back to when everybody's happy and smiling and he's interacting with other humans. And my initial thought coming out of the theater was what I mean this is a family-friendly film right for the kids kind of. If you want a real movie that deals with adult films I'm sorry to say real film if you want a film that has impact imagine if you will after you watch the film dear listener imagine that the film is
told in a linear fashion. So you have the first third of the film with the classic, we've seen it in Arrival, we've seen it in Stargate, we've seen it in Drama Distrain, we've even seen it in God Bless and The Core, where you have the nerdy guy who's then asked to go in, Eckhart, ladies and gentlemen, who's asked to go in and solve this big complex sci-fi problem, right? Again, that's the beginning of Arrival, it's Stargate, Drama Distrain, The
Okay, and then you had all of that and then you had that twist again, spoilers. he's a coward, he doesn't wanna go. And then the film cuts to black, right? That's the end of the first third and then he wakes up and the people that we've gotten to know are now dead. It was so strange in this film that we see the desiccated corpses of the comedy actress, the AT &T spokesperson, folks will know her here in the US, Milana Vayntrub, if that's what she's...
Jett Loe (09:43.253)
How do you pronounce it? But there's no emotional impact at beginning of this movie because we don't know who they are. And the main character has the horriest cliche of all sci-fi. I wake up in amnesia. I don't know where I am. I'm on a spaceship. Whereas let's just ditch the amnesia plot and he wakes up, he's a coward and holy crap, now he's on his own. The emotional impact, it would knock you out. And then we have a whole third of the film where he's alone and dealing with the terror and trauma. And then he meets Rocky and then he finds community through Rocky.
Gareth (10:00.763)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (10:12.844)
And that to me would have so much more impact. I was really surprised at the lack of impact throughout the films. We keep cutting back to Earth in past times. So there's no sense of isolation. There's no sense of being alone. Because anytime you could ever have a real feeling, we do like a needle drop or something. Hey, it's the Beatles. And bam, we go to Earth. Very, very strange. But again, maybe that was the structure of the book.
Gareth (10:29.755)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (10:37.027)
Yeah, I don't know about the structure of the book to it. I to me, it's the definition of a kind of a high value, big scale popcorn movie that does something unusual in that it is for the whole family. You can imagine entire families going to see this and while sometimes the humor gets a bit edgy, it'll be humor I don't think kids will understand. And there's nothing harsh in this film.
Jett Loe (10:52.45)
Yes.
Gareth (11:05.997)
Other than the potential destruction of the entire human race and perhaps all sentient life. And, and no, you, never, you never feel that. And, and, and that is, you compare it with, so a couple of things. You mentioned Titanic. mean, Titanic, it's easy to knock. Spoiler.
Jett Loe (11:11.01)
Yeah, but you don't feel that. You never do.
Jett Loe (11:23.722)
But Jack died in Titanic. There's no Jack dying. Spoilers. Spoilers, folks.
Gareth (11:27.489)
Spoiler, and Jack's death actually makes you feel the death of the over a thousand people on the ship more. And it is a big over the top melodrama and you feel it. James Cameron is a different kind of director to Lord and Miller. There's too much froth here. You've heard me talk before about how when Mr. Holland's opus
Jett Loe (11:36.323)
Yes.
Gareth (11:54.833)
came out 30 years ago, a friend of mine went to see it with another friend and when they came out of it, he asked her, what did she think? And she said, I think it's the greatest film I've ever seen. What did you think? And he said, I think it's the kind of film that someone who hasn't seen too many films might think is the greatest film they've ever seen. And yes, yes.
Jett Loe (12:06.797)
Wow.
Jett Loe (12:12.59)
I'm just gonna kind of interrupt you one sec. My daughter asked me after I came back from screening, what'd you think of it? And my literal knee-jerk reaction, the first thing I said was, you know, I think if you'd never seen a movie, you'd probably think it was great.
Gareth (12:20.485)
Yes.
Gareth (12:28.731)
So, so my friend, I don't think he's proud of himself for saying that because it is rude and it does shut down conversation that actually a better response is.
Jett Loe (12:35.306)
No, yes it does. I'm sorry. You're right.
Gareth (12:42.0)
I'd love to know more about why you love this and then let me tell you about some other films I've seen about teachers or other films I've seen about classical music composers or other films I've seen about people, about deaf children and their parents or the parents of deaf children and use it as a pathway to if you love this, let me introduce you to this and all along being careful. If you haven't seen Mr. Holland's Opus and you're saying this.
Jett Loe (12:47.128)
What?
Yes.
Jett Loe (12:59.075)
Yes.
Jett Loe (13:05.528)
Yes.
Gareth (13:11.598)
you maybe should watch Mr. Holland's Opus and let it speak for itself. And people who know me well understand I'm talking to me here. There are, however, big films on this scale that are entertaining.
Jett Loe (13:17.326)
You
Gareth (13:27.042)
and also intelligent. There's a word that you've talked about before that Richard Donner used apparently throughout the making of Superman that he kind of drilled into the crew. Do you remember the word that Richard Donner was aiming for?
Jett Loe (13:41.772)
Yes, he even put it on a banner on a sign and whacked it right up like Ted Lasso right above the door. Yes, Versa Millitude.
Gareth (13:44.622)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (13:48.921)
Yes. Versa-Militude. And this means, as far as I know, it's basically what happens in the context of the film. It doesn't have to be realistic to the life we have. Like, you know, people can't fly like Superman, but it has to feel in alignment with the universe that the film takes place in. That's how I understand Versa-Militude. It may may have broader meaning than that, but does that kind of resonate with you, but what that word means? And so, I mean, the tagline for Superman.
Jett Loe (14:13.292)
Yes. Yeah. A cohesive world. It's cohesive.
Gareth (14:18.35)
Yeah, the tagline for Superman was, you'll believe a man can fly, right? So the thing about Project Hail Mary is a film that is dealing with the macro level horror of the potential death of every human being and presumably all sentient life should not have such a frothy tone.
When a person wakes up after their medically induced coma in outer space and the only evidence that they've been asleep for several years is that they have a long beard. There are other things that would happen to the human body. know, sure, he's got a feeding pump, there would be, shall we say, hygienic realities. I'm not saying the film needs to...
you like have close-ups on this kind of stuff but at least at least no but but
Jett Loe (15:10.68)
Well, but it's not that kind of film. That's the thing, right? This is not the film maybe that you or I want because I mean, here's the thing, even having Ryan Gosling there doesn't work for me. Do you remember when, I'm sorry to interrupt you, like last year, Ryan Gosling did the, he did the, I'm Just Ken song at the Oscars, right? And Ryan is a fantastic, he was.
Gareth (15:34.512)
Listen, time is a flat circle for you. was two and a half years ago. Two years ago. Three. Yeah.
Jett Loe (15:38.681)
Two and a half years ago, okay.
Yeah, exactly. This is what happens when you get older, folks. But here's the thing. I watch, I mean, I love, Barbie's fantastic and he was great and his performance at the Oscars was great. But the first thing I noticed when you watch the Oscars is like, oh my God, what's he done to his face? Because, you know, there's that whole culture of plastic surgery and working. He has a huge amount of fillers put in his face and maybe he was shooting Project Hail Mary at the time or about to. So you talk about versimilitude. The whole time I'm watching this, I can't suspend disbelief because he's had so much work done. I'm like, how does a high school teach
afford all this plastic surgery. He's got a thousand dollar wig or a five thousand dollar implant. Say hey, he was ridiculous. He's wearing an incredibly stylized wardrobe. And it's totally wrong. If you want to have versimilitude, it should be played by someone like a young Richard Jenkins or imagine Jesse Plemons or imagine Paul Dano. And this is not the film they wanted to make, but this is the film that I think would have really been something.
Gareth (16:12.186)
Right, right.
Gareth (16:25.474)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
No, true. And I mean, I probably have.
I'm less bothered about it being Ryan Gosling as you think he's a wonderful actor and what he represents about a healthy kind of masculinity is really important in this particular moment, both in his off-screen life and the kind of roles that he's playing. I'm just saying you can make large scale, intelligent films that don't sacrifice verisimilitude or some kind of, I'm not saying like, you you need to be an Einstein to understand it, but I will harp on it till the cows come home. The Abyss.
Jett Loe (16:41.314)
He's wonderful. He's wonderful.
Gareth (17:08.114)
Lawrence of Arabia, Wonder Woman 84, Superman already mentioned, Ryan's daughter, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and Arrival. They're just, it's not impossible to make big entertaining films that are also intelligent and have a tone that is in alignment with the thing they're trying to talk about. At no point in this film did, yeah, good example. And in Project Hail Mary,
Jett Loe (17:26.67)
Sinners, One battle after another, sinners. At no point you were saying.
Gareth (17:35.152)
I never felt any sense of sense of risk to him as an individual or any sense of risk to the planet either. There were there were two moments. And, you know, dear listener, obviously there's spoilers all the way through this episode. So if you want to see the film without spoilers, don't don't listen to the rest of this episode till you've seen the film. There were two moments where I thought, this is genuinely interesting. One is toward the end when his face when his head smashes against like the dashboard.
and I thought he was dead and that like Rocky is going to resolve things. And then, you know, he's not dead. And then it looks like Rocky's gonna be dead and Rocky's not dead either. No, it's not a completely unoriginal ending to have our hero.
Jett Loe (18:09.496)
That would have been great. Would have been great.
Gareth (18:25.855)
stuck on a planet that he maybe can't get back from at the end of the movie, but they even blunt the force of that by showing that Rocky and his friends know how to get him back. I just wished that this film, is so visually, it's exquisitely constructed. I think we take for granted now how something can look so good. It just didn't feel that all that kind of visual aesthetic effort was matched.
Jett Loe (18:35.181)
Yes.
Gareth (18:55.149)
by a tone. Now, let's get into talking about other films that try to do the same thing and maybe do it better.
Jett Loe (19:04.622)
Sure, I'm going to give some examples that will basically show you that I'm agreeing with you to tell you and the listeners. Yeah, because I do have some alternatives. I just want to say this beautiful production design, beautiful wardrobe, the cinematography is gorgeous. Here's the thing, dear listeners, the film is two hours and 36 minutes long. It's almost as long as The Godfather. Godfather, I know who Tom Hagen is.
Gareth (19:13.839)
It's a special day.
Jett Loe (19:31.309)
I know who Sonny Corleone is. I don't know who, I have no clue. I couldn't tell you who Ryan Gosling is. He's a magical guy that can do anything. There's never any hardship. can invent, he can translate alien languages and he's an incredible chemist and he's also, can be an astronaut. Sandra Huler is arguably one of the greatest, certainly one of the greatest actresses, actors around today. I don't know who she is. I mean, she's tough. She makes the hard calls. I don't.
Two hours, 36 minutes. I have no idea who any of these folks are. And that's really something. When you think about, again, how long this film is. And yes, let's talk about some other alternatives.
Gareth (20:00.111)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (20:08.708)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (20:18.51)
I do want to say though, this is not the film, again, not a film for us. They wanted to make a four quadrant, or whatever you want to call it, family friendly film. They put in anachronistic jokes that, I don't know if this film is supposed to take place in the near future. I don't know why someone would not be making, who's not living in LA, is not going to be making a Meryl Streep joke. Or I was the only person in the entire audience who chuckled. He makes a reference. There's a reference to Close Encounters, the third kind. No one in the audience I was at got it. I was in a sold out theater. Now I was the only person that laughed out loud.
Gareth (20:41.839)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (20:46.478)
Yeah, I mean, same doing the same joke as moon raker.
Gareth (20:46.703)
Well, no, don't... I mean, it's funny. I was just going to say it's a joke that was already done in Moonraker. like... I know, I know. Yeah. Yeah. But that's, mean, I'm, you know, that's a little Easter egg for people like us. That's an Easter egg for people like us.
Jett Loe (20:53.646)
It was done in Moonraker. So I'm like, is that a homage to Close Encounters or is it a homage to Moonraker? Not James Bond's finest hour. Well, there was a funny joke about, you mentioned Superman. I'm a super, yeah. There's a funny joke about Superman. He has a joke about a 50 year old Richard Donner film, which there's no indication that the school teacher will have seen Richard Donner's Superman.
It's totally out of place. It reminds me of like the script doctoring that Tarantino did in, what is it? Crimson Tide, when out of the blue, some submarineers start making Quentin Tarantino pop culture references. so anyway, but it looks great, folks. Looks great.
Gareth (21:27.535)
Yeah, talking about the silver surfer.
Gareth (21:37.582)
Alright.
All right, so here are the six kinds of films that this film reminded me of. you got your lonely person in space or lonely person in some other form of antiseptic isolation. You got your eco-catastro- looming eco-catastrophe salvation movies. You got your films with lovable strangers. You got your films that appeal to a wide range of ages, but may end up being bland and really appealing to no age as a result.
Jett Loe (21:42.956)
Ooh, we got categories.
Jett Loe (21:56.878)
Mm.
Jett Loe (22:00.984)
Hmm.
Jett Loe (22:08.024)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (22:08.661)
You get your films with unsubtle religious analogies. And seriously, you've also got films in which consent is overridden, but the film attempts to justify it in the interest of the common good. And I hope that by the end of our... Well, there's some very, very interesting parallels here. And dear listener, spoiler alert is I did not dislike this film. And I...
Jett Loe (22:21.762)
Last Temptation of Christ.
Gareth (22:34.095)
I'm not gonna see it again. I did not dislike it and I don't wanna be, it's patronizing to say that people who haven't seen a lot of films might love this. I'm sure there are a lot of people that will love it. It's worth saying there's no significant violence in this movie. The antagonist in this movie is not anthropomorphized. There's no myth of redemptive violence going on. There's actually some deep heroism happening to...
Jett Loe (22:37.486)
Peace.
Gareth (23:03.331)
but the film is less than the sum of its parts, I think, I think. So Jet, shall we begin with the lonely person in space or otherwise antiseptic isolation?
Jett Loe (23:13.566)
what I call my 30s. Yes, please.
Gareth (23:15.439)
Hey in the middle in the middle of your 30s you met me
Jett Loe (23:19.831)
Let's, I mean.
Jett Loe (23:24.206)
Oh, that's right. It's been almost 20 years. think it's been 20. This is not our 20, 20, 20 anniversary show. it? Is this the?
Gareth (23:27.183)
It's not the 20th anniversary show, is the 20th. Avid listeners will know that this week, this very week is the 20th anniversary of when we both met star crossed by chance in the middle of a movie theater. A movie theater that I was in only two weeks ago. I go back to pay homage. I go back to pay homage. They're building a national monument.
Jett Loe (23:56.547)
To you, film critic. yes. You know, it's interesting, you mentioned the idea that it's like, you know, violence, very little violence and no antagonists. And you know, that sort of reminds me of, that's one of my favorite things about my neighbor Totoro, the Studio Ghibli film. I you watch the whole movie and the...
Gareth (23:57.889)
No, to mark the place where you and I met. The place where you and I met.
Gareth (24:06.314)
Yeah.
Gareth (24:14.85)
You have a... sorry.
Jett Loe (24:19.372)
and you watch the whole movie and you realize, there's no bad guys. There's no antagonists. There's no thread. There's a kid that maybe gets lost for a while. Hey, where's that kid? I don't know. Let's go get the neighbor and find him. But there's no, it's great. I know you don't like the Studio Ghibli films and that's on.
Gareth (24:23.542)
No, no, yeah.
Gareth (24:28.138)
Mm-hmm. On our magic-flying, our magic-flying cat bus.
Listen, I actually saw the Royal Shakespeare Company, Phil McDermott production of my neighbor Totoro just last month and it's extraordinary. But Studio Ghibli doesn't do it for me. Yeah, Lonely Person in Space.
Jett Loe (24:45.352)
As is the film. Okay, so we want to talk about your... Fair enough. You want to talk about space isolation. I mean, right away, when you're watching this, you can't help but think if you've seen this other film, of a certain film, especially because there's three creatures in this other space isolation movie, Guy Alone with Three Creatures, and they're shaped just like Rocky. So it's very obviously inspiration. That's Silent Running, the early 70s Bruce Dern eco.
sci-fi film about a guy alone trying to save basically plants in outer space. He's got three robots and they're kind of shaped like Rocky. That's, you can't help but think of that one. And it's, think it's a better film though. It's a little, it's rough going. It's not, it's not a feel good motion picture folks.
Gareth (25:28.278)
No, it's not. And, you know, nobody thinks of 2001, A Space Odyssey is a feel good motion picture. if you know, if you actually if you actually think about it, it may be the most optimistic film ever made because it has the promise of of the evolution of of of humanity into interbeing. A film is kind of equally optimistic, although kind of.
Jett Loe (25:36.079)
I do, because humanity evolves.
Jett Loe (25:44.44)
Yes.
Jett Loe (25:49.165)
Spoilers.
Gareth (25:56.623)
You may not feel this the first time you see it as Tarkovsky's Solaris, which also ends in a kind of a philosophically, psychospiritually very similar way to 2001. 2001 ends with Dave Bowman evolving into the star child. And I would say the oneness of humanity with the divine and Tarkovsky Solaris ends with the main character falling at the feet of his father and embracing his father and his father embracing him.
back. are extraordinary images. Contact, very similar, also culminates with the lead figure meeting her father. And it may sound churlish to say this, but something in Project Hail Mary reminded me of the shining as well. There's more than just a
2001 references where Kubrick is concerned, there's even an explicit reference to a moment in A Clockwork Orange 2. But just referring to these things doesn't mean that the film genuinely resonates with the themes in them. Unfortunately, for me, all these other lonely person in space movies, when you compare Project Hail Mary to them, you just want to watch the earlier ones. And it's not because I'm a grumpy old man, it's because they do the job better.
Jett Loe (27:15.406)
I think those are all, mean, Silent Running 2001, Solaris, Contact, I'm not a huge fan of Contact because, well, because I'd read the book first. And if you haven't read Contact, I won't spoil the end, there's a jaw-dropping, I want to call it a twist, there's a jaw-dropping thing that happens, a reveal that happens at the of Contact, and it's not in the movie. It's a thing that I remember about the book more than anything else. Yeah, no. You want me to tell you?
Gareth (27:24.046)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (27:35.186)
no, tell me. No, tell me. Tell me and we'll time how long it takes you to tell me and then we can tell the listener to skip forward that amount of seconds if they don't want to hear this. All right, spoiler.
Jett Loe (27:44.737)
Okay.
At the end of Contact, they finally reach the end of Pi, of the number Pi, and they realize that there is a message embedded, there's some sort of code embedded in Pi itself, which is jaw-dropping because that tells you that even the idea of the circle is completely created, that our entire reality is a complete construct done by even the idea of something as simple as the circle, which is really mind-bending when you think about it. And they did not include that in the film. I can understand why because it doesn't...
Gareth (27:55.086)
Ahem.
Jett Loe (28:17.336)
wouldn't fit in with a Jodie Foster adventure from the director of Back to the Future. But that was a big surprise to when I saw the film. But anyway, those are all great. And you know, also I would... Okay.
Gareth (28:29.036)
So that was about 40 seconds and I realized that people have to project themselves into the future to find out that it took 40 seconds to tell the spoiler. perhaps the point that Interstellar makes about time... No.
Jett Loe (28:40.454)
Well, we see time, this is not like Arrival. We see time in a linear fashion. know, Silent Running is not a feel good film. I don't want to watch it again because it is. If you're in a really good mood, folks, put on Silent Running. If you're in a bad mood, you can... Too good a mood, put on Silent... You want to even, you don't want to be too manic. So you want to even yourself up after too much coffee or whatever you're...
Gareth (28:52.3)
Yes, if you if you're in too good a mood if you're in too good a mood
Jett Loe (29:04.942)
you know, upper of choices, just put on Silent Running, it's gonna get to you. You know, now when I think about your Lonely Person in Space, there is another film, it's one of my favorites, and it's a whole sections of the film. The film goes back and forth, they're the Lonely Person in Space, it has flashbacks and you know, maybe it's kind of like a kind of a Project Hail Mary situation. And that of course is a force with Steve Railsback as a shuttle captain and we see him in space, you gotta put in a life force there. Okay, now you talked about eco-catastrophe.
starvation movies.
Gareth (29:36.291)
imminent eco catastrophe salvation movies, imminent eco catastrophe potential salvation movies.
Jett Loe (29:37.984)
imminent.
Jett Loe (29:43.129)
Did it surprise you watching Patrick Hail Mary that there was no indication of there being any problems other than a shot at the end of the fact after everything's been turned out okay that we see an aircraft carrier and it's in chilly waters. It's cold. And Sandra Uhler's got long hair. That tells you time has passed. She's got long gray hair. So bad.
Gareth (29:55.543)
Yeah, yeah. Like that. That was kind of where I felt like, like, you know, you could have made a four hour limited series about this and fleshed that out a bit, but the film's already too long, given the point you made earlier, but the Godfather is able to convey, convey all this information in a film that's around the same length. And there's so much in Project Elmery that just felt like obsolete.
repetition rather than trying to take seriously the threat that its hero was trying to address.
Jett Loe (30:26.402)
Yes.
Jett Loe (30:36.194)
Well, again, imagine just as a thought experiment, Gareth, that it was told in a linear fashion and that we see signs of the eco-collapse before he's drugged and sent into space. That means that would linger with you the whole time when he's alone in space and we were, and that is how he deals with his cowardice. For him, the whole human race, his name is Grace, we're talking about a Christ figure, the whole human race is who he has to be brave for, right? Which is like the best line in the film that's done by that great character actor.
Gareth (30:43.084)
Yeah.
Gareth (30:49.848)
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
Gareth (30:57.518)
You
Gareth (31:01.814)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jett Loe (31:05.976)
who was in Night Shyamalan's old. What is his name, Jung? I want to say it's Ken Jung. I could be wrong. I apologize about that, dear listeners.
Gareth (31:15.63)
I think it's Ken. Let's see.
Gareth (31:24.664)
Ken Leung.
Jett Loe (31:24.844)
Yeah, Ken Young. And that would really have been something, but again, we don't get it. What's a better eco-catastrophe film for you?
Gareth (31:31.35)
Well, it's strange. This is not a well, it's better at being an eco catastrophe movie. And that's the day after tomorrow, which actually has really I mean, the death of Ian Holm near the beginning of the day after tomorrow is no pun intended. Truly chilling. then and then I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Really, really. OK, OK. I did not intend it as a pun.
Jett Loe (31:46.638)
That's even better than your paws comment.
Jett Loe (31:55.543)
Is that where they have, they find a bottle of whiskey, they have like one last like 20 year old McKellen whiskey or something?
Gareth (32:00.214)
I think they might, which is a parallel to that, the Stanley Tucci scene in the core when he, this is the deleted scene. They didn't use this in the film where he's he's barreling down into the core of the earth and he knows he's gonna die. And he's like the bad guy. what's the name of the kind of, I mean, he's an evil, queer, homophobic stereotype and lost in space, the kind of imperious scientist.
Jett Loe (32:12.545)
in the core.
Jett Loe (32:28.349)
Dr. Smith. Yeah.
Gareth (32:29.825)
Doctor Smith, he's kind of like that character, but he's going to die heroically, sacrificially saving the earth. In the deleted scenes, he's like barreling down and he has this flash of inspiration. He's like, thank God, thank God, thank God. And you think, he's found a way to both save the earth and not have to die himself. But actually, no, he's just remembered where he stashed his cigarette so that he can have a smoke before he dies. And maybe in home, yeah.
Jett Loe (32:57.144)
You know, can I just say something? The core is not a good movie and the core, well, here's the thing. It's always, it just feels like a lot of missed opportunities. Like this should either be like, it could be done seriously like Robert Wise's The Andromeda Strain and be really good that way. they find...
Gareth (32:59.788)
Yes.
It's not a bad movie either.
Gareth (33:13.517)
or a real satire.
Jett Loe (33:16.654)
Yeah, or they find Mole Men as they go into the earth. But it does have the best scene is, and also it's one of those films like that's like species in which you have this absurd cast. Every few minutes there's another great, like Delroy Lindo's in this and Stanley Tucci and the space shuttle pilot is Hilary Swank. And you know, it just keeps going on. It's like species, right? But there is one good scene in the core, right at end, spoilers for the core, Stanley Tucci is gonna die. You know he's gonna die. And he's like, he's a...
Gareth (33:19.309)
Hahaha
Gareth (33:27.925)
Yes.
Gareth (33:35.745)
Yeah.
Jett Loe (33:44.815)
a who's like a scientist, but also somebody who popularizes science. And he starts doing his self-aggrandizing audio diary he's keeping of their mission. And as he's doing this, he then he stops and goes, who am I talking to? He realizes the absurdity of what he's doing in the moment and the absurdity of his entire life and career as a person. And then he dies. And then that was great. Okay, so I'll put you a day after tomorrow, Melancholia, Melancholia.
Gareth (33:58.626)
Yes. Yeah.
Gareth (34:04.493)
Okay. The effort tomorrow is better than that. then, then, yeah, the clues in the name, friends, if you're in too good a mood. And then I'm going to say a film, is, it's a, it's a, the day after, which is a version of an eco-catastrophe film, because part of the reason for people believing that it's.
Jett Loe (34:16.558)
If silent running is cheering you up too much, put on melancholia.
Gareth (34:34.227)
OK to fire nuclear weapons to each other is because of misguided notion about scarce resources on the planet. And I'm not saying Project Hail Mary should be as bleak as the last scene of the day after where an irradiated Jason Robards, I believe, is climbing over a crash heap, but some sense of taking seriously the threat that's
Jett Loe (34:55.938)
Something.
Gareth (35:00.481)
that's there. all right. It's not one in the catastrophe stake. It's still not a bad movie. Films, number three, films with lovable strangers. E.T. being the, yes, you feel like you don't know me after all these years. Inscrutability. E.T., clearly the...
Jett Loe (35:02.328)
Something.
Jett Loe (35:10.892)
That's how I've always thought of you as a lovable stranger.
How can anyone know anyone else?
Gareth (35:24.171)
the gold standard, something I think is really interesting about Project Hail Mary and something I genuinely meaningful cultural contribution is that Rocky has no anthropomorphized facial features. And I think there's something genuinely important here because I'm convinced that this is a deliberate choice, whether this is how Rocky looks in the book or not. If it is how he looks in the book, then it's Andy Weir's conscious choice.
to try to address the need for, as Mironaire said, to see life through the eyes of the other. If Rocky had had eyes and a nose and a mouth, he's easy to engage with. But the fact that he doesn't, there's this extra layer of distance between the protagonist and this lovable character. And I think it forces the audience.
mainstream audience to think about difference in a positive way. So I really like that about it. I would agree with you if I did.
Jett Loe (36:27.054)
I would agree with you, except we see at least two. I would, except that it's a, you know, the cinema is a visual medium. They put the images on screen. So we see what Rocky sees and he does see, we see it. So that is, I know what you mean. We don't have the googly eyes on the rocks.
Gareth (36:40.545)
Yes.
Gareth (36:47.597)
Sure, yes, but he doesn't have that kind of, I don't know, the resonance thing that, it enlarges the sense of who the we is.
Jett Loe (36:58.273)
Excel.
Jett Loe (37:03.938)
That's... yes, but aren't-
Gareth (37:04.383)
And it's an anti, I'm going to say it's an anti-ableist statement and it's an aesthetic move in favor of a deeper level of equitable inclusion.
Jett Loe (37:16.733)
That's, you know, I would agree with you, except I've seen, I've seen silent running and folks, dear listeners, if you haven't seen silent running, just Google silent running robots and click on images or whatever your browser, whatever your search engine is, and you'll see robots that are the exact same size and have this basically the same shape as Rocky and they also don't have eyes. So I really feel it took from them. I'm not in any way saying you're wrong.
Gareth (37:19.194)
hahahahah
Jett Loe (37:44.367)
I'm just disagreeing with you because we've had it before and we see it. We see it. And I think, no, I think it's interesting the idea, like, I don't know how we receive, like, it's some sort of sonar. He can't see depth, which is interesting. That's a nice little bit. And they do a nice little bit of business with that. But I'm not clear on how he, if you wanna use the word he, may not be appropriate for Rocky.
Gareth (37:45.133)
You
Jett Loe (38:07.47)
But how, and then we can talk, what's with the whole Rocky, Adrian, like does the, this film was stuck in 1978 because we've got the references to 78 Superman. And then you got the characters named Rocky and then Adrian is in Rocky's mate in the Rocky film. And that's Rocky's, like what's going on here?
Gareth (38:08.032)
They're mint.
Gareth (38:22.582)
Well, this is, I mean, that's where it feels calculating because it's like you say, four quadrant and then like, know, you're like highly focused sub quadrants, the highly focused sub quadrant of people who want to be reminded of Rocky and Superman. I'm happy to be reminded of both, but none of it felt organic. None of it felt organic.
Jett Loe (38:27.272)
it's super calculating. Four quadrant. Yeah.
Jett Loe (38:44.27)
No, no, I don't wanna say, I was thinking about this before we recorded, because I have the exact same feeling as you do, right? I don't wanna believe that it's cynical. It's just very like, gonna make a big hit. We are gonna make a big four quadrant hit, and we're gonna have the jokes like the Superman and the Meryl Streep and the close encounters for the kids and the Rocky and Adrian, not for the kids, for the adults in the audience, or the old people in their 60s or 70s, right?
It feels incredibly calculated to the degree that one's disbelief cannot be suspended. We're gonna have Ryan Gosling look great even with the fillers and the incredible wardrobe, because that's what a subset of people are gonna look like, are gonna want. So it did feel incredibly calculated. I hope not cynical, but you they're justifications. You want that money, they paid off. Ka-ching.
Gareth (39:29.566)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, who knew? Sure, sure. Well, that also does wha-
What you're talking about the wardrobe there, it reminds me of another subset of parallel films, which is films with memorable cardigans. And the two that immediately come to mind for me are Ordinary People and Good Will Hunting. And Good Will Hunting, Robin Williams' cardigan, Robin Williams' therapist cardigan has a direct through line back to Judd Hersh's therapist's cardigan in Ordinary People. so, dear listener, if you, believe those were organic cardigans. I also believe that Dr.
Jett Loe (39:58.127)
Sure. But you believed it.
Jett Loe (40:04.46)
It was organic. well, I see, I couldn't as high school. Well, yeah, Jeff Bridges wore his own in the Big Lebowski, right? And it feels organic.
Gareth (40:06.22)
Grace would wear a cardigan like this. I like good cardigans. I like movies with memorable cardigans.
Gareth (40:16.188)
The Big Lebowski, it's almost a cardigan onto itself.
Jett Loe (40:20.622)
Yes, and it's a wonderful card again. have one of those, the Pendleton, I bought it from Pendleton and it just needs pockets. It's great, but you got it needs pockets so badly. But I just don't, but.
Gareth (40:25.312)
What?
Dear listener, if any of you out there would like to send pockets for Jets cardigan, I'm sure they'd be a welcome 20th anniversary gift.
Jett Loe (40:37.358)
Boy, that sounds like a sad telenovela. Pockets for Jets cardigan. It's the Christmas special. No, but the thing is with the wardrobe, he looks incredible and I just don't buy it for a second. He's a grade school teacher. I know he's like the hip teacher, but it's like he's so stylized. It takes me out of the film.
Gareth (40:41.915)
Hahaha!
Gareth (40:52.512)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right, what about films that appeal to a wide range of ages but may end up being bland as a result? Are there films that appeal to a wide range of ages that don't end up?
being bland, ET is one of them. I saw ET again recently on an IMAX screen. And the thing that struck me the most paradoxically given the scale of that screen was how small the story of ET is. ET is the story about one boy growing up. And even the scale of the effects in ET, it's still all taking place in one small suburban or one medium sized suburban neighborhood.
Jett Loe (41:25.016)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (41:34.851)
Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. They did not, this was never designed to be a four quadrant hit. The success of ET took everybody by surprise when they, it is the opposite of this film in that it was not calculated. It's a from the heart, small, low, relatively low budget picture. And to everybody's surprise, Spielberg is famously talked about this. It became this global juggernaut hit.
Gareth (41:35.018)
There's nothing global about ET.
Gareth (41:44.47)
Uh-huh.
Right, right.
Jett Loe (42:04.472)
But it did it out of heart. was telling a small story, like you said, it was the opposite of, in some ways, of Project Hail Mary.
Gareth (42:09.908)
Yeah, the project Hail Mary feels a bit like how do we get heart in here rather than that's what it proceeds from. yep, sure.
Jett Loe (42:15.63)
It kind of feels a little chat GPT-ish. Do know what I mean? It's sort of, again, I haven't read the novel. You know what this reminds me of? Because with all the needle drops and all the songs, it reminds me of a film from 2018. See if you can guess where I'm going with this, Gareth. It was a hit. made over $600 million. GQ said though, it's a thrilling empty ghost of the better movies of the past.
And it's a film that constantly, it's a sci-fi film that constantly goes, hey, you remember this reference? Hey, you remember this reference? Hey, you remember this reference? And I think maybe you like the book and that's Ready Player One.
Gareth (42:40.588)
Mmm.
Gareth (42:50.783)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (42:53.878)
So it's something very, it felt very much of the, the internet, all these references, it's fun, but it's not really going to be that. But also that had Mark, had Mark Rylance, so better, yeah.
Gareth (43:01.356)
Yes. Well, it's a good thing there's... Sure, sure. And it's a good thing there's no connection whatsoever between Ready Player One and ET. That's... They couldn't possibly have been made, but... It did... Yeah. mean... Yeah. So repetition for the sake... Or resonance or reference for the sake of reference usually needs to be accompanied by something else. Otherwise it feels like...
Jett Loe (43:10.07)
Yes, well, that's why I'm kind of, I'm putting it all together here into a thesis. I'm putting it into a thesis.
Gareth (43:31.404)
know, nostalgia is, it can be, sure, I'm cool with sitting looking through a photo album of our memories together. That's lovely. But it isn't enough on its own every time, you know.
Jett Loe (43:45.391)
Is there a poster of Superman or something in Ryan Gosling's classroom? Is there anything? Because guess what? There's a poster for Superman 2, the cool Japanese poster in one battle after another. In Sensei's, his version of a dojo, his classroom.
Gareth (43:51.634)
I don't know. I don't know.
Gareth (43:59.117)
huh.
Gareth (44:03.958)
Do you remember? So, you know, I was watching the Fisher King last night, which I watch about once every 18 months. Do you remember the posters in the video library in the Fisher King? Directed by Terry Gilliam. Really? Really? Really?
Jett Loe (44:16.588)
You know, I'm not sure I've seen The Fisher King. I'm not 100 % sure I've seen The Fisher King. I may have, and I love Terry Gilliam and I love all, I love Jeff Bridges. I will. I will. Well, sure.
Gareth (44:26.56)
Let's do a bonus episode on the Fisher King and I'm not going to tell you what movies there are posters for in the video library in the Fisher King because that would be a spoiler and you've not seen the Fisher King.
Jett Loe (44:36.62)
Terry Gilliam movies are great.
I'm sure I have. I know I have, I just don't remember it. Yes, I'm a huge fan of Brazil, time bandits, you know. I'm sh-
Gareth (44:44.204)
please watch it, please. Please watch it, please watch it. You're not, you're not having me on here. You've, you, you don't, if, even if you've seen it, you don't remember it.
Jett Loe (44:54.708)
I remember a terrible thing that happens at a restaurant. And I remember some swinging on a building. And that's all I remember of the Fisher King. I haven't seen it for decades, but I love Terry Gilliam. So we'll do a bonus episode.
Gareth (45:03.572)
Wow! I'm happy for you. I'm happy.
I'm happy for you. I'll say one thing about The Fisher King that's really valuable and really rare is there people remember it as having two protagonists Robin Williams and Jeff Bridges, but it actually has four main characters. The other two are played by Amanda Plummer in Mercedes Rule. And it's a rare film when there are two women and two men and the two women's characters are drawn as richly and in this complex way. And I have agency the way these two do as well. And the the late, great Michael Jeter in that movie too. please, are we agreeing here and now?
Jett Loe (45:37.133)
Yes.
Gareth (45:37.658)
Diagetically, think, would be the word that we're going to do an episode on the Fisher King.
Jett Loe (45:43.906)
Diadgetically, like the opening music in my equivalent to your Fisher King, Eyes Wide Shut, that I watch every few months when he turns off the music in the apartment.
Gareth (45:49.386)
Yes. Films with unsubtle religious analogies. You the character is called Grace and I mean, the concept of grace is one of the most beautiful concepts in spirituality. But just calling a character Grace doesn't
Jett Loe (46:01.132)
that my heart did sink.
Jett Loe (46:17.154)
What about, how about I can trump that? Sorry for saying that. How about if you name a character Grace Augustine? So you got Grace and then the flaw and then, you know, that's Sigourney Weaver in the Avatar movies. That's a rough one. That's her name, man. Way to go, Cameron.
Gareth (46:20.808)
huh.
Gareth (46:24.683)
I
Gareth (46:30.399)
is that her name? Is that her name? know, it does, you know, it points out, you know, Grace is an unearned gift freely given. That does raise the question of like this other than films with unsubtle religious analogies, there's something profoundly serious in this film in that his consent is overridden.
He is literally he's assaulted, he's assaulted and he's drugged. And whether they give him some kind of amnesia drug as well, which is like, does he why? Why is he? You know, because he doesn't remember these things for a lot. It's quite possible that this that the serum they gave him. I mean, this is actually quite interesting. And again, if the film had been told in a linear way or if the tone had matched the theme.
Jett Loe (46:59.916)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (47:11.342)
It was so unnecessary.
Jett Loe (47:25.73)
The threat, yes.
Gareth (47:26.859)
That's a really, really serious thing. I've rarely seen it. Someone's consent being overridden for the sake of, or for the interest of the common good. And the fact that he does discover his own courage by being forced into this situation. But like, it's just toyed with. It's just toyed with.
Jett Loe (47:47.458)
Yes.
Gareth (47:49.718)
That's so unfortunate because there's something here, maybe in the raw material, there's more depth. don't know, having seen The Martian and not read The Martian, to me, this honestly, unsurprisingly, the film this most reminded me of was The Martian because in watching The Martian, I felt no sense of risk or threat to Matt Damon at any point during that film either. But it's a very...
Jett Loe (47:56.587)
a longer version.
Gareth (48:15.337)
It's a very profound question that isn't handled with the seriousness it deserves.
Jett Loe (48:20.66)
No, and actually, you I was enjoying the film like, it's kind of okay. I had these problems with it. But then when we do have that, I call it a twist. he's actually a coward. We find out in this flashback and that he's being forced to do something against. Well, I use the word coward because that's said explicitly. The issue of being a coward or being brave is done explicitly in the line. know, the thing is you have to be brave. All you have to do is be brave for somebody else.
Gareth (48:31.211)
I don't know that you call him a coward. I don't know that you call him a coward. think he's, I think he's, he's scared.
Gareth (48:41.661)
Okay, okay.
Gareth (48:46.133)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (48:49.589)
See, yeah, go on with what we said.
Jett Loe (48:52.268)
You know, so to me that really, it didn't feel earned at all and it didn't feel like it thematically worked at all in the movie where it could have been this amazing thing where if that happened at the end of the first third and then he has his memory, so he has the knowledge of his own, if you want to use the word cowardice, or his own fear and then he has to overcome that. Yes, yes. How about Last Scentation of Christ, Willem Dafoe? Like, hey, I'd like to live a normal life. Why do I have this big burden on me?
Gareth (49:09.823)
Well, and his own being violated, his own being violated and,
Well, well, I mean, the the the the the parallel is there, although although, you Jesus does consent to his own to his own crucifixion in that in that story. seems to me like a really, really interesting, really interesting way to have handled this in Project Hail Mary is let's let's call it the jet the jet plus.
Jett Loe (49:21.71)
It's a rough one. It's a lot of pressure.
Jett Loe (49:33.228)
Spoilers.
Gareth (49:46.085)
structure have it mostly told in a linear way. So we actually see him refusing or declining to get on the ship and we don't see them wrestling into the ground and and and drugging him. All we see is a fade to black and then
11 years later or whatever number of years later, he wakes up on the ship and we assume that he's consented to it, but it's only later that we discover as the memory dawns on him that he did not consent to this.
Jett Loe (50:16.354)
Well, yeah, you want to do that in a conversation with Rocky's. Rocky asks, why is he the one that's out there? And then Rocky talks about his own loss and that, or that I thought I would find him far more compelling is that if he again doesn't have the memory loss and he's been hiding it from Rocky as well, he doesn't want to admit to his Rocky, his friend. You know, he's the only example of humanity that Rocky has that he was actually again in the parlance of our times, a coward or someone who wasn't brave enough.
Gareth (50:21.13)
Why are you here? And that jogs the memory or whatever.
Gareth (50:31.88)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Gareth (50:38.046)
Yeah.
Gareth (50:42.43)
Well, well, and like Interstellar deals with that in the Matt Damon character. In the Matt Damon character who, you know, he sort of, his, again, I don't know that I want to call it cowardice, his absolutely understandable terror. His absolutely understandable terror.
Jett Loe (51:02.776)
Would have been better if Matt Damon had played this character. I want like Jesse Plemons or Paul Dano. How about, you know what? I was thinking, talking about like religious analogies and it made me think of, while we're talking of Nicholas Cage in Knowing. What about Nicholas Cage? A younger Nicholas Cage?
Gareth (51:08.97)
No I don't. Yeah, this-
Gareth (51:15.87)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (51:20.062)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (51:24.318)
You need, there is this thing of actors who become so familiar that they're up against it no matter what they're playing. you mentioned Meryl Streep, you know.
Jett Loe (51:30.253)
Yes.
Gareth (51:35.069)
I love watching her on screen. I haven't actually seen her. She hasn't really had a really rich, dramatic leading role in a long time. And I'm not saying she's coasting. Yeah, Doubt probably was the last one. I'd need to look at the filmography and thanks for the reminder of that because she's fantastic in Doubt, but.
Jett Loe (51:46.402)
Was doubt, was doubt the last one?
Gareth (51:57.321)
Much of the time when actors become so well known, they're kind of competing against themselves. And we might imagine Christoph Waltz and Frankenstein, where like part of that is he is accepting roles or maybe he's only being cast in roles that feel like stereotypes of things he's done before. I would love to see Christoph Waltz play a romantic lead. I would love to see him play someone who's filled with angst. mean, his characters don't have a lot of angst. They're very confident.
And maybe a film like this. Like here's the thing, we haven't mentioned, can you cut at this point just so can find this guy's name? I wanna get the name of the voice of Rocky.
Jett Loe (52:37.326)
Sure.
Jett Loe (52:41.897)
The puppeteer.
Jett Loe (52:45.728)
It's the puppeteer does the voice. He's really good. James Ortiz. Yeah, James Ortiz.
Gareth (52:47.848)
is that right? that right? James Ortiz. OK, so what am I saying? All right. So, know, in a film of this scale, I understand why they want to cast a star, but sometimes the film is so much more entertaining if it's not a recognizable face or a recognizable voice. And we do have to mention James Ortiz, who is both the voice of Rocky and the lead puppeteer. I spent the first few Rocky scenes thinking, is that the guy who always does the voice? Because I knew it's not Andy Serkis and it's not Alan Tudyk.
Jett Loe (53:07.458)
Great, it's great, great.
Jett Loe (53:17.294)
I was gonna say, are you thinking it was Alan? I was like, I wonder if that is it gonna be a Tudyk? If it was the 90s, what it had been Robin Williams, and he would have done a lot of pop culture references to like Pepsi and McDonald's and the date.
Gareth (53:17.738)
I, no, I, no. well, Rob, I mean, it's, you know, Rob, you remember Robin Williams in AI in the same scene that Meryl Streep and Ben Kingsley are in AI. And that works. That works. Another film with no connection to ET. Okay. So, all right.
Jett Loe (53:34.41)
I do. I do.
Gareth (53:44.619)
Where are we at? We've compared with six different kinds of Lost in Space, Eco-Catastrophe, Lovable Strangers, Wide Range of Ages, Unsubtle Religious Analogies, and films in which consent is overridden but the film attempts to justify it in the interest of common good. Were they detoured to good, memorable cardigan films? Are there other kinds of films that this film parallels?
Jett Loe (53:48.174)
Did you wanna talk about?
Jett Loe (54:06.52)
Well, there's a couple I wanted to mention, films with unsubtle religious analogies, and they're maybe not the world's best films, but there's a lot of pleasure to be found in them. And I would say, you talk about Alan Tudyk, it's gotta be Alan Tudyk, right? Who, is that, who's it? Yeah, he's gotta be the guy who basically plays Moses in I, Robot, he plays a robot. And that actually has, is that Alex Proyers who also did Knowing? I think maybe it is, right? And.
Gareth (54:15.785)
Yes.
Gareth (54:25.341)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (54:30.825)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jett Loe (54:32.27)
There's a, you see a sketch of him where he has a memory or a dream of being, you know, in front of a bridge, a symbolic bridge that's kind of broken down and the robot is looking at other robots and he becomes a religious figure to other robots. And that's really interesting because there's something in those Alex Proyas films, he also did Dark City, right? Where there's this underlying haunted feeling of an ineffable, of the unknowable.
Gareth (54:50.334)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (54:54.719)
Yeah.
Jett Loe (55:01.506)
connection to all things and different states of being. And I've never thought about this, dear listeners, Gareth, I'm just top my head here. But I think there's something in that. So am I kind of worth watching iRobot for that, I think. And actually knowing, and knowing gets a lot of people, they laugh at it because it's so silly and it is ridiculous. But knowing also has terrifying moments. It also has that ineffable undercurrent of the supernatural or the divine running through it.
Gareth (55:13.502)
Well, and I-
Gareth (55:21.79)
I-
I remember Roger Ebert adored knowing and his writing on knowing is really quite beautiful. Another film on subtle religious analogies but actually kind of gets you in the gut is The Omega Man, which literally has the blood of a martyr saving the human race.
Jett Loe (55:31.148)
Yeah. Well, he had good taste.
Jett Loe (55:44.159)
Liter is
you
Jett Loe (55:51.043)
Does he die, spoilers for Omega Man, does he die in a Christ-like pose? He does, doesn't he? His arms, yes, okay. In a fountain.
Gareth (55:55.273)
Yes he does, yes, in a fountain, in a fountain, in a fountain with the magnificent, the magnificent Anthony Zerby, a TFT actor if ever there was one. Okay, so anything more you want to say about Project Hail Mary?
Jett Loe (56:03.31)
Wonderful actor.
Also, one last thing, if you want to do unsubtle religious analogies, and folks, if you like your sci-fi and you have not seen this, man, you got to see it. Early 50s, black and white, it's probably only 90 minutes long. It's probably a tight 90, I'm guessing. Robert Wise's fantastic, dathier stood still with the main character whose name is called Mr. Carpenter. He's bringing a gift of mankind, it's not subtle. I'm going say anything else, forget about the Keanu Reeves reimagining.
Gareth (56:25.726)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (56:36.878)
early fifties, it's got an amazing throwaway, basically a gag, blink it if you miss it, criticism, critique of broadcast media, just wanting to go, we would say go for clicks today, that is actually like, I mean, shocking even now when you're watching it, must have hit really hard and whenever this film came out in 1950, 1951, great score by Bernard Herrmann, got the Thurman, all the good stuff, go see the day of the Earth stood still. Okay, what's the last question? Should people watch this film? What's the key question?
Gareth (57:03.612)
Well, the key question here about Project Hail Mary, which we've been discussing now for nearly an hour, clearly there was nothing worth talking about in Project Hail Mary. It's one of the longest episodes we've done in a while. To watch or not to watch? To watch or not to watch?
Jett Loe (57:22.528)
If you've seen movies, don't need to, folks. I mean, you don't need to, do you? You're saying yes.
Gareth (57:25.118)
Nah.
I'll say what I'll say is if you if you sometimes like large scale films, but you're not into thunderous action and you'd like to see something that's refreshing, refreshingly mostly free of violence, then yeah, watch it.
Jett Loe (57:47.682)
My neighbor Totoro.
Gareth (57:49.29)
So yeah, that's what we'll say about Project Almeri. Jett, I have a little surprise for you. I have a little surprise for you. And this week, the 20th anniversary of our meeting. This week, I'm hoping you don't know about this. I'm hoping that I'm going to be the person who diegetically tells you about this.
Jett Loe (57:56.335)
Ooh, what is that?
Jett Loe (58:02.522)
Okay. Now, folks who are, sure, for folks who are new listeners, you and I walked out of a film. We've never publicly said what it is, and that's how we met. We were both on dates with different people, and we both walked out of the film, and then we met each other in the lobby of the theater in Belfast in Northern Ireland. Okay, so it's been 20 years since then, almost to the day.
Gareth (58:12.019)
We've never publicly named what it is. Yes.
Gareth (58:19.485)
Yes, yes. And it has been so. So this week I discovered I heard about a film that's getting released, I believe next month, maybe maybe in early in early May. And I read about the film and like the first three paragraphs I was reading about the film and I was thinking, no, no, no. And then I get to the fourth paragraph and I went, yes.
Jett Loe (58:29.709)
Okay?
Gareth (58:46.951)
I'm going to send this article to Jet and I'm going to say, make it through the first three paragraphs. you may be wondering why I'm sending this to you. But then when you get to the start of the fourth paragraph, you will understand why. There is a film that has been made that is being released in theaters in either late April or early May. There are four key words that will tell you all you need to know about this film.
Jett Loe (58:48.993)
Okay?
Jett Loe (58:52.364)
Okay.
Jett Loe (58:57.452)
Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay.
Jett Loe (59:11.042)
Yes.
Gareth (59:11.335)
And I'm going to tell you the first three and I'm hoping you don't already know about this film. If you do, you can just say so. OK, I'm to tell you there's four key words. I'm going to tell you the first three and then I want you to predict the fourth. Yes.
Jett Loe (59:15.488)
Okay. Okay.
Jett Loe (59:21.56)
There are four keywords and you want me to predict the fourth, you can tell me the first three. Keywords.
Gareth (59:30.264)
Yes, and knowing that the fourth is a word that in its own right, in its own right, this word is a word that brings you overwhelming joy. But in the context of these other three words, we're like out of the park. It's going to knock it out of the park. OK, so the first word, harlan, harlan, harlan. HR. No, no, no.
Jett Loe (59:45.118)
Okay, let's go. Let's go.
Jett Loe (59:50.666)
Like Jan Harland Kubrick's brother-in-law? Okay. Okay. All right.
Gareth (59:56.402)
No, no, Harlin, H-A-R-L-I-N, the former husband of Gina Davis.
Jett Loe (59:59.929)
Carlin, H-A-O-
Jett Loe (01:00:05.336)
Renny Harlan, is he still with us? Okay. He's got a new movie. I did not know this. Okay. Okay.
Gareth (01:00:06.729)
Correct. That's number one. Not only is he still with us, he's got a new movie. That's number one. Number two, the surname of an actor you've already mentioned in this episode, and that is Eckhart.
Jett Loe (01:00:20.078)
Okay, so hold on now. What you're telling me is that Renny Harlan, director of Die Hard 2, Colin Die Harder, they should just called it Die Harder, and Deep Blue Sea, the famous killer shark movie. Okay, he's got an, and Long Kiss Good Night, which is always watchable. Cutthroat Island, not so. Okay, so he's doing a movie, Aaron Eckhart. Okay, I'm in so far. I'm in.
Gareth (01:00:40.617)
Uh huh. huh. Word number three, and I'm going to give you a word 3A and 3B, okay? Because, you know, which is really... Well, I want to help you. You know, I'm feeling generous on the anniversary week. Word number 3A, sharks.
Jett Loe (01:00:47.084)
Well now you're changing the rules.
Jett Loe (01:00:52.832)
Okay. Yes. So he's revisiting Deep Blue Sea. Okay. Well, I mean, that is a notoriously ridiculous film that people love for a very famous reason, which I will not spoil for the listeners involving Samuel L. Jackson.
Gareth (01:01:06.077)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. we're, we're number three B we're number three B. well, it's, I'm going to hyphenate this word because two words really, sit.
Jett Loe (01:01:11.319)
Okay.
Jett Loe (01:01:15.742)
Okay. Are there up to five, six, six keywords now? What are you doing?
Gareth (01:01:20.297)
Sometimes it's okay just to... Grace is an unearned gift freely given. Word 3B sinking plane.
Jett Loe (01:01:27.18)
Yes, Mr. Augustine.
Jett Loe (01:01:33.71)
Okay, wait a minute. It's got Aaron Eckhart in it, It's directed by Renny Harlan. He said sharks are seeking plane. Is Aaron Eckhart the pilot of a plane that crashes into the ocean and they have to fight sharks?
Gareth (01:01:39.739)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes.
Gareth (01:01:51.362)
Yes, with one exception, one exception, he's the co-pilot. He's the co-pilot. And so now we're on to the last word. We're on to the last word. And this is the word that is going to make this film the one that you're most looking forward to. Perhaps this year. It's going to be the word that gets you to be in line to watch it in its opening day. And yes.
Jett Loe (01:01:53.657)
Did I get it? he's a co- like Sully.
Yes, sir.
Jett Loe (01:02:08.654)
But here's the thing, you said release the... Hold on.
Jett Loe (01:02:16.142)
Okay, don't tell me the word yet because the big thing here, the thing that's making me really excited is you said theatrically. So it's not like a cheapo Amazon Prime, guess Hail Mary was Amazon Prime. So Aaron Eckhart is a, Eckhart plane surrounded by sharks. Just like the plot of airport 75, 77. He's the copilot.
Gareth (01:02:19.24)
Yes.
Gareth (01:02:25.931)
it's definitely from the trailer, it's cheapo. It's absolutely cheapo. But I think it's going to make it better. Harlan, Eckhart, sharks, sinking plane and... Eckhart... Exactly, Eckhart is the co-pilot. So there is another co-pilot. Or maybe the senior pilot. Maybe he's the deputy pilot. Well, I'm going to let you guess. What word? What is the word? What is the word?
Jett Loe (01:02:45.354)
Is that another... and you're going to reveal that to me now.
Okay.
Gareth (01:02:54.483)
that would manifest absolute compulsion for you to be there first day to see this film.
Jett Loe (01:03:00.107)
For the other pilot? I mean, if it was Richard Jenkins.
Gareth (01:03:01.885)
I'm gonna give you three guesses. That would make it a good, that would make it actually a film that's probably better than it is. I don't know, we haven't seen it yet. It's gonna be good, but it may not be good good. So, Jankins, no, that's one of your three guesses. That's one of your three guesses.
Jett Loe (01:03:14.136)
Who's the other pilot?
Okay, wait a minute. Is the last word the other pilot?
Gareth (01:03:22.557)
the surname of the actor who plays the pilot, not Jenkins. It is Ben Kingsley!
Jett Loe (01:03:25.262)
Is it Ben Kingsley? YES! YES! YES! YES!
Yes, let's go! Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Wow.
Gareth (01:03:43.741)
And want to guess, you want to guess, and you did not. You're being truthful with the audience here. You did not, you didn't know.
Jett Loe (01:03:48.888)
Well, recordings on videos, can, Gareth can see me. can see I haven't looked anything up. I haven't typed anything.
Gareth (01:03:52.393)
I'd see you right, okay, so what is the film called? It's a two word title. It is so wonderfully shameless. It is so wonderfully shameless.
Jett Loe (01:03:56.463)
a two word title.
Jett Loe (01:04:05.294)
I feel I've already won with the Kingsley. I don't think I need to answer any questions. I've won. I'm a winner. What is it?
Gareth (01:04:10.662)
This would only be icing on the cake. It's called, it's called deep water.
Gareth (01:04:19.004)
And I'm gonna be there, dear listener. I'm gonna be there on opening day. I think we should, we can't, we can't, we certainly, we... Harlan Eckert, sharks, sinking plane, Kingsley. And I'll tell you this, I'll tell you this. Like, you shouldn't watch the trailer because I'm convinced the trailer gives away the death scene of one of the major characters.
Jett Loe (01:04:21.742)
Uhhhh
That's our 20th anniversary show.
We're doing it.
Jett Loe (01:04:34.976)
Unbelievable. Unbelievable.
Jett Loe (01:04:47.824)
sure. yeah. Sure. Well, of course. Yeah, sure. All right. I won't watch the trailer. Dear listeners, thank you so much for listening. That was a very special moment for me. I feel that validates 20 years of my friendship with Gareth Higgins. If you want to get bonus episodes and archives from the first incarnation, don't forget you can go to patreon.com slash The Film Talk. It's patreon.com slash The Film Talk. on Facebook too for some reason. Facebook.com slash The Film Talk.
Gareth (01:04:47.92)
It's obvious, it's obvious. So...
Gareth (01:05:12.264)
You
Jett Loe (01:05:13.915)
That was a fun show. We learned, we laughed, we loved. I've been Jett Lo.
Gareth (01:05:16.776)
You
Did we cry? Did we cry? We didn't cry.
Jett Loe (01:05:23.05)
I kind of cried in excitement right there.
Gareth (01:05:24.572)
Watch the Fisher King. Watch the Fisher King. Let's let that be our next episode.
Jett Loe (01:05:29.528)
That could be a, that's another. So we're gonna do bonus episode, Fisher King, 20th anniversary episode, deep, what's it called? Deep water? Fantastic.
Gareth (01:05:35.698)
Deepwater, I think it's called Deepwater. you know, mean, it's not just the fact that his other shark film has the word deep in the title, but Adrian Lyne came out of retirement to make a film two years ago that was also called Deepwater.
Jett Loe (01:05:50.702)
It kind of reminds me of dead calm.
Gareth (01:05:53.613)
huh.
Jett Loe (01:05:54.306)
Sam Neill and Eyes Wide Shut co-star Nicole Kidman. And didn't Orson Welles do a version of that? and Billy Zane. God bless him. We got to get going. Thanks for listening, folks. That was Philip Noyce. We're trailing off now into ruminations. I still am.
Gareth (01:05:57.32)
Nicole Kidman and Billy Zane.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Philip, nice. We do.
yeah. I think you already said I'm Jett Lo. I'm not Jett Lo, but, but you have my loyalty. I'm Gareth Higgins and we'll keep talking.
Jett Loe (01:06:19.756)
next time for Dead Water. Dead Water? No, Deep Water. Dead Water would have been better. Thanks for listening folks. We'll talk to you real soon. Wow, that was, that is amazing.
Gareth (01:06:23.09)
Deep water. Deep calm. Deep, deep water. Deep water.