Gareth has spent roughly 20 years trying to make Jett watch Field of Dreams. The long national nightmare is over. What follows is a conversation about fathers and sons, baseball ghosts, Burt Lancaster, lost monoculture, regret, forgiveness, and whether it is ever truly too late to make amends.
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Alright, we're back folks. Thanks for listening to the Film Talk. It's one long conversation about movies and what they mean. I'm Jet Lowe.
Gareth (02:30.19)
Garth Higgins, conversation never ends. I have to, I was gonna say I apologize, but it's not my fault. It's the fault of the pollen. And I'm grateful that the pollen exists. I'm going to acknowledge I'm a bit croaky today because of allergies. I've been out in the dust, and they've gotten into my chest.
Jett Loe (02:46.842)
Maybe you're just tearing up because you watched Field of Dreams, a sentimental tearjerker. Listen, we have to get right into it because you have wanted me to see this film for decades. I never saw it. And is it your favorite film? Now you and I, it's up there. Top five.
Gareth (02:58.019)
Yes.
Gareth (03:02.72)
No, there's certainly been times when I would have said it was my favourite film. I do think it's a lovely film with something meaningful at its heart as well. Now, I did revisit it for this episode. I've probably seen it 30 times and like you, I did not see it on its first release. I've only seen it once in a theatre and that was about five years ago, but I've watched it at home.
Jett Loe (03:19.206)
Wow.
Gareth (03:28.59)
many times for listeners who don't know. First of all, there's got to be spoilers in this episode so that we can talk about the film. If you have not seen Feel the Dreams, please do yourself a favor and watch it before you listen to the rest of this episode because we want to talk about it meaningfully and that requires spoiling something that for many people is a very moving surprise at the end of the movie. That's the big chill.
Jett Loe (03:33.606)
Yes, it's 37 years old.
Jett Loe (03:51.328)
Is it that Kevin Costner's dead the whole time?
Gareth (03:56.6)
Kevin Costner is dead the whole time in the Big Chill. So, you know, for if you if you don't know it, it's based on W.P. Kinsella's novel Shoeless Joe. It's about a farmer in Iowa, his family. He's out in his cornfield one night, sees a vision that if he plows under his corn and builds a baseball diamond, something magical will happen. This is where we get the phrase, if you build it, he will come.
Jett Loe (03:57.905)
That's true.
Gareth (04:25.837)
from and part of the whole point of the film is who is the he. We don't actually really find out who he is until the very end. But along the way there there's a US American Midwestern road trip. You've got Lancaster, you got Amy Madigan, the Oscar winning Amy Madigan at home keeping the home fires burning.
Jett Loe (04:47.778)
I was amazed she was nominated for this. Yeah, I couldn't, we'll get into it. Yes, she was. Yes, she was. Yes. Do your research.
Gareth (04:53.153)
Well, she was, no, she wasn't. Was she nominated for this? She wasn't nominated for this. No, she wasn't. No, she wasn't. No, she wasn't. Should we just keep, I mean, I'm going to look that up. And if, if she was nominated for this, then that's what I said all along.
Jett Loe (05:07.758)
While you're looking that up, we've got a clip here. This is Kevin Costner in full Iowa farmer mode. Let's listen in.
Gareth (05:18.637)
Okay, so do you want to cut that because she wasn't?
Jett Loe (05:19.27)
That's field of dreams.
Jett Loe (05:24.442)
What was your number eight for?
Gareth (05:25.357)
She was nominated for, was it Places in the Heart or something else? No, Twice in a Lifetime.
Jett Loe (05:30.327)
Okay, that makes sense because...
Jett Loe (05:35.446)
I won't cut it out. Now you can say she wasn't nominated. Just go ahead and say it. No?
Gareth (05:37.095)
I don't know. There's no need to do that. Why don't we just go back to me saying Amy Madigan, keeping the home fires burning and then I'll say a couple more things because I don't think I'd...
Jett Loe (05:41.734)
Okay, I'll cut that. Okay. All right.
Jett Loe (05:48.248)
Okay, all right. I got to, I want to introduce, I'll just introduce the clip here.
Gareth (05:55.318)
Right, what do want me to say? You want me to say anything to lead up to that? Okay, okay, you got it.
Jett Loe (05:55.833)
No, no, I'll be fine. All right. And we got a clip here. Here is Kevin Costner, AKA the Gill Man from Waterworld. A film, you know, it's a remake of one of the Mad Max pictures I have an affection for. Let's listen to Kevin Costner in full Iowa farmer mode. Okay. And whenever you're ready.
Gareth (06:20.141)
OK, so, you know, a film like this for for me, I'm not sure what a film like this for you would be, but a film that's kind of gotten under my skin and kind of almost become part of me for so long. Looking at it now, I'm often thinking about the person I was then and the person I am today and imagining the person I be in.
Jett Loe (06:42.052)
Yes.
Gareth (06:45.677)
the future. remember watching this film, first of all, when I couldn't imagine being 35 years old, which is the age of Kevin Costner's character at the start of the movie. And now I'm 51 and he's like, I look at this person who's kind of responsible for farmland and sharing and responsibility for a family and exercising this astonishing vision. And I'm thinking, gosh, isn't he too young to be doing something so.
significant. So you know, you watch films and you relate to them differently as you age. Time was my experience of this film was, I just felt it was a lovely story beautifully told and deeply moving. It's a film about reconciliation. It's a film about the father wound that so many people carry and about the desire that
Many of us find later in life. I wish we'd been able to be friends. I wish I'd been able to be friends with my dad and perhaps our our dads wish they had been able to be friends with us. That's meaningful to me. It's meaningful to a whole lot of people. When I watch it now, what I see is a very well classically made film in which storytelling and atmosphere
is of a rare quality. I watched part of it again last night. The pacing of it. It's so rare to see a mainstream large scale release movie today that is slow for even five minutes. It's so rare to see a film other than a Marvel movie that has more than two characters who you can really identify their their character arcs. This film is is full of character. Frank Whaley.
Burt Lancaster, James Earl Jones, I've already mentioned Amy Madigan, the school board meeting, all these little vignettes. There are storytelling building blocks that are just pretty rare. The music is gorgeous. The atmosphere is real. And at the end of the day, I'm not so sure anymore about this film. I'm not so sure that
Jett Loe (08:45.028)
Rough. No, it's rough.
Jett Loe (08:50.81)
Yes.
Gareth (09:04.033)
the best possible ending is the idea that this family are now going to become multimillionaires off the back of other people's grief. Right? I'm not so sure that's the only way that it could have ended, although that is a gorgeous...
Jett Loe (09:09.574)
Do you think, do they build a big sign? There's a big sign that says meet your loved ones in the afterlife. They come to the thing. It's like an upscale funeral home.
Gareth (09:23.117)
Yeah, maybe they'll put up a sign saying pay what you can afford. No one turned away for lack of funds. that moment, I mean, I don't know if you watched any of the little making of documentaries there are. That was quite an industrial operation to get all those cars. That's not a special effect. All those cars were all timed to start up their engines, put on their lights. I mean, it's a beautiful, delicate landing. I'm just not so sure that it's the best ending.
I do think that the thing I most want to talk about, and I'll just flag this now, but please then tell me how you feel about the film. Maybe we can get into this is the question of intergenerational relationships and what it means when our parents' generation are so different from us that we might end up being at odds with each other. And I'm not necessarily talking about, your individual family, my individual family. I'm talking about a generational thing. see it.
Jett Loe (09:55.6)
Yes.
Gareth (10:19.754)
manifest at a political level. And one of the things that may give me pause about this film is there are movies that can unite people across lines of political difference. That's not necessarily always a good thing. You know, if it's if it's it's uniting around universal consciousness and the desire to expand the common good, great. If it unites people in a sense of individualistic tribalism, let's have our our homestead and charge people to come and feel good by sitting on the bleachers in our
backyard. I'm just sitting with curiosity around that.
Jett Loe (10:51.376)
That's, I mean, that makes it a very 80s film. I came into this conversation with you talking, thinking that it was very much a 90s film. I came out in 89. It is so 90s right from the start with the font that's used with Kevin Costner's appalling shirts that are checkered and light colored. They're so, they're terrible. It's a color palette of Star Trek The Next Generation. But also there, but you hit on the 80s thing of this sort of individualism to make money, F.U., I Have Mine, Reagan, and Thatcher. But there's also,
Gareth (10:55.518)
Sure.
Gareth (11:00.353)
Mm.
Gareth (11:07.084)
hahahaha
Gareth (11:20.182)
very similar to Back to the Future's ending.
Jett Loe (11:22.406)
Absolutely, yeah, there is this sort of this vibe of almost destructive capitalism and exploitation that isn't back to the future, however unintentionally, and in this film, however unintentionally. It's a very strange film. You talk about intergenerational.
Looking at this film from the remove, there's a lot of very odd things about it and lot of missed chances. One of the strangest things I found is the ages of Amy Madigan and Kevin Costner. They talk about the 60s and they seemed far too young to be part of the 60s generation and it would be much more and they had but yet the set decoration and the wardrobe, you know, emphasizes peace signs and they're driving a VW bus and it's almost it would be stronger as if they felt they had missed out on the 60s.
Gareth (11:52.118)
Hmm. Hmm.
Gareth (11:57.911)
Yeah.
Jett Loe (12:11.366)
and they're trying to conjure up because they were to look at the age of the actors and how the characters are portrayed. They were too young to be 60s folk. They would have been like, you know, 13 or something.
Gareth (12:20.172)
Yeah, they would have been 20 in 1975. Try to wear maybe 74.
Jett Loe (12:23.566)
Yeah, and so it's almost like they missed the 60s and that would have been more powerful, especially considering that the James Earl Jones character sort of embodies the 60s. But that's a different film and a more complex film. This is a very broad picture and the reason, Garantino, that I mentioned this to you before years ago when we talked about wanting to talk about this movie, I know I stopped watching it before very early on in the picture because I thought it was too broad because there was a wide shot of some extras and they'd done the...
some of the very heavy, foldy work, the sound effects, and they dubbed in the voice of a guy going, know, he's gonna lose his farm. And I thought, man, this is too broad for me, and turned it off. Now, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie. It's still very, very broad. I laughed, there's chuckle moments throughout. I laughed at the opening montage and voiceover video from Kevin Costner, but it is a very broad film. And what's so interesting to me, in terms of the broadness of the script, which I...
I think is very apparent and people noted at the time is how much like a sitcom it is. Meaning that there are repeated jokes. So you look at a sitcom like Friends, you know what Joey or Ross or you know how I met your mother, you know how these characters are going to act. And it's the same way here. know, Amy Madigan has a one note character. She's a supportive wife, but she's wacky. So in every single scene, she does something that's wacky and you anticipate that.
Gareth (13:25.516)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (13:43.527)
The daughter says something, the parents are paying attention. She does that repeatedly like a sitcom and it does that with all the characters. It's very interesting and you can imagine this as a sitcom, popular sitcom in the 90s where the mayor is visiting Kevin Costner's character, Ray, and then the ghosts come in but the mayor can't see him and the ghosts start wisecracking about the mayor's got a big ass and then you're hear the audience laughing. No, but that's what it feels like. It feels like a sitcom which...
And you know, looking at it from this vantage point of decades later, you're wondering like, was this so successful? Because it is a compelling story and it does take place, it was made, and we talked about this before on the show, I've gone on ad nauseum, at what is very clearly the pinnacle of cinematography with film stocks before digital came in. Because the film looks so good, it looks incredible, these beautiful, rich, saturated colors of the filters on the camera.
And only now with films like Train Dreams, right? And I mentioned this on the show before. Only now are we starting to get to the point where digital can do something really interesting in modern mainstream films. Michael Mann's Collateral accepted. And so even ordinary films like Practical Magic from this time period look amazing. So this film looks incredible. It's got a James Horner score. And when I saw his name come up, I mean, I love James Horner, but I God.
Are we gonna get battle beyond the stars again? This guy kept, he kept doing it. He kept doing it.
Gareth (15:13.036)
He definitely, he liked quoting himself. Can you imagine, can you imagine that the artistic depravity of quoting yourself? What was that you were saying that you'd said on the show before?
Jett Loe (15:17.026)
Yes, well, you know, when you're
Ha ha.
Jett Loe (15:25.318)
Yeah, you're one of those funny people I've read about and that exist in field of dreams. But yes, but it's interesting to look at this film from remove in which we lost that technology. We lost all that decades and decades of people working, film workers working in the industry that knew how to light with these film stocks. Absolutely gorgeous film, but also very, very
Gareth (15:30.476)
In podcast world.
Jett Loe (15:52.143)
strange and there's a few obvious ones. I know we want to talk about the themes of reconciliation and intergenerational issues which again you know to me are odd considering these people didn't seem to be of the right generation. The biggest thing that comes across is there's this whole idea of injustice right these these players weren't allowed to play so what's the first thing that comes to mind?
Where's the great injustice in American baseball? It's not, mean, I get the eight men out thing, which is a John Sayles film, which I recommend highly, but there's another injustice, which is far greater than these eight players. And that is team after team after team of the Negro leagues that were not allowed to play. And you look at them going, wait a minute, what about the Negro league? So coming from the viewpoint of 2026, it's very, very odd. But look, that's not what the film is about. This is, don't forget, this is by the guy that wrote Ghost Dad.
under an assumed name, Phil Halden Robinson. God bless him. So I'm dealing with the broadness. I'm dealing with the broadness. You want to talk about fathers and sons. What is this film really about? What's it really telling us? What's it trying to say?
Gareth (16:58.175)
Well, I think that that's that's I mean, it does look beautiful. I'm really not sure that's why it was so popular at the time.
Jett Loe (17:06.894)
No, it's got laugh out loud moments. It's got a couple great, it's got great jokes in the beginning. It's got a great comedy joke scene with James Earl Jones. You know, it's got good bits of business in it.
Gareth (17:15.403)
I think... I think...
I think men were given permission to open up emotionally by this film in a way that I can't really think of. It's unusual to say, as you can say, another film set in the real world, because of course this is a...
Jett Loe (17:24.506)
Okay.
Gareth (17:35.404)
Star Trek is not set in the same kind of real world that that Field of Dreams is set in. And yes, people cry at Spock's death and they cry at Spock's resurrection for sure. And, famously people cried the dirty dozen. I think this film came at the end of a very emotionally repressed decade. Well, you've already mentioned when you think about what was popular in, you know, what was a popular male archetype?
Jett Loe (17:56.933)
Yes.
Gareth (18:02.335)
In the 80s, it's Rambo, it's Conan, it's the Terminator. Die Hard had just appeared the year before. There is a touch of vulnerability in John McClane's, in the lead character in Die Hard, but something like this that allowed men, cisgender men, feel the grief that they were touching in their lives or they had suppressed in their lives. And it could be wrapped up in the form of...
He probably was the certainly one of the most popular male actors at the time. You know, Kevin Costner really would you say he really broke big with the Untouchables? was that's that's probably when he kind of became stratospheric and.
Jett Loe (18:44.038)
It was clear, I think, when you watch this film in the theater that, oh, you're watching a movie star, right? This is like the, oh, you're watching a star and he's great in it. My first thought while watching is, hey, would this be better with Tom Hanks? And I don't think it would. I think they probably wanted Tom Hanks. I want to talk about Tom Hanks in a second. They wanted Tom Hanks, but he has, Kevin Costner looks like a baseball player, right? He has that look, he has that vulnerability. Yeah.
Gareth (18:49.279)
You're watching a star.
Gareth (18:53.588)
and it's a sport.
Gareth (18:58.687)
Hmm... Maybe.
Gareth (19:06.505)
Sure. And he's made like five or six baseball movies, but it's, it's a sports movie.
Jett Loe (19:11.502)
And he also plays a little dumb. He's a little, I don't know what he's like in real life, but he comes across as, he's not the sharpest guy in a lot of his films. You know, like, No Way Out or Even the Untouchables. He comes across as naive.
Gareth (19:14.429)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well...
Gareth (19:25.299)
Yeah, it's I get that. And I think that I'm just I'm just kind of seeing that one of the reasons it kind of gives this permission for certain kinds of mental field emotion is because sports movies always do that. You're you're allowed to cry when the underdog wins. You're allowed to cry when the underdog loses. And yes, yeah, it's absolutely true.
Jett Loe (19:42.712)
their function. You're allowed to touch another man, right? So you can have physical contact, slap on the ass. No, this is true. This is it. We're talking about permissions. This permission structure. So you can do that. You can slap a man on the ass and you can cry.
Gareth (19:56.286)
Yeah. And I know men who were alienated from their fathers. know men whose fathers were abusive to them. And this film, watching this film was a kind of a healing bomb for them. So I don't want to take that away from anybody. And it touches me personally, too. I think I've just
Jett Loe (20:13.668)
No, of course not.
Gareth (20:21.417)
It's it's I want to be careful, but I'm not sure I really want to say this, but like Braveheart didn't. I don't think Braveheart accomplished any sense of real justice for the people of Scotland. I'm not sure that Braveheart could, you know, people had a cathartic experience when they when they watch Mel Gibson triumphantly die. Does it lead to change in the real world? Not so.
Jett Loe (20:35.238)
That's not what comes to mind. Yes.
Gareth (20:45.971)
Not so sure. Does Field of Dreams lead to people, I've read about people taking their dad to a bowl game after they see Field of Dreams and Dwyer Brown who plays John Kinsella in it. He used to go around and speak at minor league baseball games about these kinds of questions. it's important to raise them.
Gareth (21:11.135)
does the fact that we're watching a film 37 years old in which a school board meeting is asked to ban books. And Amy Madigan defeats what she calls the spread of fascism in the Midwest. And we're 37 years later. I have some curiosities. I have some curiosities.
Jett Loe (21:33.926)
It would be the same today. People are still there and they would ban books, but they would also say the books give you like trans cancer. You know, it's worse.
Gareth (21:46.723)
And but it's also like it's worse and better in that. Take the example of like men being able to show vulnerable emotion in public and be taken seriously. That's definitely more possible than it used to be. People being able to talk about mental health questions, people being able to talk about grief, that's definitely more acceptable than it than it used to be. So like it's it's a mixed bag.
Jett Loe (22:10.918)
It is a mixed bag, but it's interesting to go back and look at this film because it is such a time capsule.
and we're in such a different environment because it seems to exist in a world in which there's more of the monoculture, even though that is a very broad term and not always applicable, when there's a big speech about the importance of baseball. And that doesn't exist anymore. As a kid, I never followed sports. From the Bay Area side, I went to an A's game or Giants game now and again. I never followed sports, but you knew when the World Series was on.
Gareth (22:27.167)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gareth (22:38.058)
Hm
Gareth (22:44.607)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (22:44.836)
Right, you knew when it was on. Now, I couldn't tell you when it's on because it's not in my feed. The algorithm gives me zero sports. So that tells me not only do I not follow any sports related activities, neither does anybody I know follow them. Therefore, I get zero information. So everything is far, far more splintered. I don't think that's just a function of my age. And at some level, you could see the, here's a reach, folks.
Wait for it. Here it comes. At some level, could imagine you could see the power of the Trump presidency, right? Because the Trump presidency is an effect of a monoculture of imposing Trump. And no matter where you are, you get bombarded by information about Trump and what that administration is doing. So it's almost a sort of pushback against the splintering. But I don't know if I'd want to go back to a monoculture, but I think there is obviously a nostalgia for that time.
Gareth (23:24.031)
Aha.
Jett Loe (23:39.111)
Right? The film is now older than Kevin Costner was when he made the movie. And there is no unifying force. Baseball is not, I don't know what the numbers are. I don't think the numbers are great. I don't think it is the great American pastime. I boxing was obviously a huge, you know, in the 40s and that's gone down. just baseball, is that the same kind of situation? So it has this weird, watching it now, it feels very mournful to me. Also,
Gareth (24:04.553)
yeah.
Jett Loe (24:05.382)
Also the fact that I know that should they have done something in terms of the casting with his dad? Because he doesn't have a lot of presence. haven't really seen much from him. Maybe this film acting is not as strong. Could it have been somebody like a Bill Campbell, the guy who played the Rocketeer? Or could you have done stunt casting? What if Tom Hanks had been his dad? What if it had been somebody with... Well, you don't want stunt...
Gareth (24:25.54)
Bad idea. No, you don't you don't want to recognize it. Well, that's like George, that's like Clooney showing up at the end of the thin red line.
Jett Loe (24:34.63)
well, you he always did come across as kind of kind of Yeah
Gareth (24:36.67)
Which even, mean Clooney actually asked Terrence Malick to cut him out of the film because he felt like this is distracting at the end. No, I love Dwyer Brown in this movie. He, he, that's, there's a lot of weight he has to carry in that last scene. And I think he does it beautifully. Say what?
Jett Loe (24:43.108)
No, wait, wait a minute. Wait, hold on. Hold on.
Jett Loe (24:49.414)
Sometimes people aren't always successful. Sometimes people are not always successful. I agree maybe stunt casting was not the good idea because the film already has stunt casting in the film's weakest link, is Burt Lancaster. And no, no, look, it's clear they wanted Jimmy Stewart, right? They wanted Jimmy Stewart. Jimmy Stewart, I know, hear me out. Hot takes with Jet Lone.
Gareth (25:08.412)
yeah...
Gareth (25:15.282)
Alright, alright, alright. It's the last remaining scene in the movie that I think is perfect, but that's okay, go on.
Jett Loe (25:17.284)
No, no, but here's the thing with Birdelink, it's clearly-
Jett Loe (25:23.226)
Look, Burt Lancaster, love Burt, come on, don't get me wrong. Love him in so many different things. Local Hero. Well, if you wanna see magical realism, you watch Local Hero, he's fantastic. Here's the thing with Burt Lancaster, clearly they wanted Jimmy Stewart, they couldn't get Jimmy Stewart. Or you can have a little cameo from Jimmy Stewart because they're watching an old Jimmy Stewart film by the Invisible Rabbit, a little fantasy film.
Gareth (25:29.736)
The Leopard. The Leopard. Il Gattopardo.
Jett Loe (25:47.825)
from earlier decades. couldn't get Jimmy Stewart. Jimmy Stewart's retired, he doesn't want to do it. That's what the IMDB trivia says, right? Burt Lancaster, if you actually look at the film, you think about film production, he could have knocked that out maybe in three days, right? Because we have some exterior shots in the town, we have an interior shot in his office, and then he's got a scene on the baseball field. So maybe he did in three days. And what I'm saying here is, comparing him to James Earl Jones, James Earl Jones clearly had time to prepare
and think about his character and what he wants to do. Burt Lancaster, I don't know what happened. I'm just saying he literally could have just come in and said, all right, where do you want me? Where's my mark? Roll, bam. And he does a little twinkle in his eye and does a Burt Lancaster thing. I don't buy him for a second. He can't sell these lines, right? These are really, listen to this line, listen to this line. Here's the line, folks. This is my most special place in all the world, Ray.
Gareth (26:35.87)
Wow.
Jett Loe (26:45.378)
Once a place touches you like this, the wind never blows so cold again. You feel for it like it was your child. Burt Lancaster, no, no, but he, Burt Lancaster's an incredible screen actor. He cannot sell this. It comes, it's a groaner. And God bless him, he's doing his thing. But I'm just saying, have a feeling like he didn't have a lot of time. So he's by far the weakest link of the motion picture.
Gareth (26:53.226)
But he didn't write that line. It's,
Gareth (27:08.842)
Well, forgive me for, for, forgive me for stating the, for stating the obvious, but it's, in the eye of the beholder. would have been a tragedy if I'd only gotten to be a doctor for 10 minutes. sells that line. And we're not going to persuade. You're not going to persuade me that Bert is the, is the, the weak link. I do want to ask you a question. I do want to ask you a question that's, that's, but it's been a, it's been a debate in our home for a long time. And there are some people who still argue this point and I, I, I.
Jett Loe (27:21.232)
Sure, that's a b-
Jett Loe (27:25.06)
I'm not saying Lancaster phoned it in. I'm saying, yes, sir, I'm here to answer all questions.
Gareth (27:38.654)
I'm not going to tell you what my position is on this and there is dear listener, another spoiler in this. When, when Terrence man, James Earl Jones walks into the field at the end, is he dying?
Apparently there's a big debate about this out there. I see no room for debate, but I want to know what, what did, what did you, what did you, when you were watching it, what did you think? Did you think he was going to come back or not? Okay. Is he in the act of dying?
Jett Loe (28:00.868)
Is he?
Jett Loe (28:06.532)
Well, we're all dying. We're all dying. Act accordingly.
We're all in the act of dying.
Gareth (28:13.444)
Is he in the imminent act of dying just after he disappears?
Jett Loe (28:17.072)
Here's what I thought when he wandered into the cornfield. What I wished, this is what came to me, I said, you know what? The film has not sold me enough on James Earl Jones being such a huge Titanic figure in American arts in the 60s. And I really wish they had done what the brilliant Steven Soderbergh did in The Lyme by using shots in The Lyme he used from Poor Cow of Terence Stamp and watching
Gareth (28:21.535)
Yes.
Gareth (28:40.948)
footage of him. Of Terrence Stamp, yeah.
Jett Loe (28:46.776)
him going to the cornfield, really wished that they had used clips maybe when he played from the, there are a couple clips you could have used from when he played the president of the United States in the Rod Serling penned movie, The Man, where he becomes accidentally the president of the United States due to tragedy. That was my thing. No, I didn't feel that he was dying. You could have, I mean, that's an interesting interpretation, but no, no, no, no, he's going, but it's a weird.
Gareth (29:12.142)
he's not dying. That's the correct answer. That's the correct answer. But with all, with all respect, with all respect to people out there, including my spouse who, who thinks that he does die.
Jett Loe (29:21.712)
Well, you know why they're thinking this because that would have been better. That's like people who watch, no, you watch, no, it's like, no, no, no, no.
Gareth (29:25.418)
No, he's just said that he's going to he's going to write and publish for the first time in decades. This is what people need and want.
Jett Loe (29:32.775)
It doesn't work. It's very odd. It's like, why does he have special powers to go in the cornfield? It reminds me, people want that to be true because like, it's like when you watch Reservoir Dogs and people will swear up and down, they saw the jewelry store robbery with a black girl getting killed. And that's one of Tarantino's tricks where he implants things that he never shows you, which is a fun little trick. So people, when they watch it, a recollection, they think that because that is actually, that's what it should have been, that he's going. He should have had like terminal cancer, we find out in the beginning. Do you know what I mean?
Gareth (29:48.446)
Hmm.
Jett Loe (30:02.438)
It's odd and it kind of comes out of nowhere. It's one of the film's faults. Not the weak link like Burt Lancaster, of course, but.
Gareth (30:09.637)
get in the sense this is your the new holiday classic in the in the low household your your refusiveness knows no beginning.
Jett Loe (30:20.356)
Look, the film works. It can be hard. It can be hard. Look, when you're at a remove, things are difficult to sometimes understand why they're so big and so popular at the time. I was stunned to see that Roger Ebert gave it four stars. This was a huge hit. Look, you watch Willow now, it's like, okay, you weren't there in the theater when Willow came out and it's the first time people saw morphing and they gasped. That is hard for people because it's like, and it looks crude today.
Gareth (30:31.561)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (30:37.652)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (30:43.851)
Hmm hmm hmm.
Jett Loe (30:47.952)
but they gasp or you know, King Kong, right? So this removed 37 years or whatever it is, it's fine. Is it a modern American classic? Is it on the level of like, it's a wonderful life or other Capra films? Maybe if it had been better written, well, I've had better written and Jimmy Stewart had done it.
Gareth (31:05.993)
Probably not. Well, I mean, it's funny, I still like it. And I like a whole lot of things about it. It doesn't feel like it carries that heft. And that's an interesting, you maybe we'll get into it. We get into this periodically is films that felt special at the time that don't so much anymore, not just because of
the craft or the writing, but because of the perspective to kill a mockingbird is a beautifully made film in a lot of ways, except the most important way. And that is who it centers and whose pain it uses as learning experiences for the other characters and the audience that it was intended for. And I'm not sure there were a whole lot of people talking about that in 1962 when the film came out.
It's really curious to watch it today and wonder could there be almost like an inverted remake in which the black characters in To Kill a Mockingbird get to be centered.
Jett Loe (32:09.572)
Yes. Well, yeah, well, and the same thing with this. What if James Earl Jones was the main character and he's bringing back people from the Negro leagues? I just feel that would have so much more heft.
Gareth (32:17.863)
Well, I mean, don't know, do know that you know how they changed James Earl Jones's character from the book to the movie? Do know about this?
Jett Loe (32:25.54)
I believe it was either Thomas Pynchon or JD Salinger. If you have to pick, David Foster Wallace. Yes.
Gareth (32:30.673)
So in the book he is he is he is JD Salinger. He is JD Salinger in the book. And my understanding is the Salinger's people may have threatened a lawsuit. they they invented a character. And it's really interesting if he was JD Salinger in the film, he would not have been played by James Earl Jones, which is I mean, certainly, James Jones in this film. You've not said no, you've not said anything negative about him. No, you like him in it.
Right? He had more time to think about it.
Jett Loe (33:00.186)
He clearly had more time to prepare. He's a great, he's, I, that, that is, I don't know what the deal is with the production. I could be completely off base. It just seems to me that Burt Lancaster swooped in a couple days, where do want me? Roll the cameras, old pro, and he does it, and he's doing his thing, but it's, but it's not the same level as James Earl Jones, who's, can do anything.
Gareth (33:15.153)
Listen, you and I, whenever the time comes for you and I to go into the cornfield, maybe it'll happen. I don't know that it'll happen together, but if it does, one of the first things I'll do will be to ask Burt Lancaster, did he have, how much time did he have to think about playing that role?
Jett Loe (33:25.571)
goodness.
Jett Loe (33:32.89)
More than three days. You are very optimistic. I mean, that's not a bad outcome for me if I'm in a cornfield with Burt Lancaster. What was Kirk really like, Burt?
Gareth (33:39.997)
With Burt Lancaster? No, I-
Genuinely curious and we'll, I'm sure we'll explore it in the future. Movies that are timeless because who they center and what they say is timeless or perhaps even more meaningful today than it was then. And movies that lose something because a more evolved perspective looks back and says, yeah, you're really, really missing something here. Folks.
Jett Loe (34:10.982)
Well, let's go back to this part that works for you of his dad, right? Because this is the whole, is a reconciliation. So then it's the film about regrets. A guy gets a second chance, right? You get a second chance to make amends. That obviously speaks to you.
Gareth (34:17.459)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (34:30.806)
It turned out, you know, dear listeners, when I was a kid, I found out that the name on birth certificate from my father wasn't actually my father. Never actually met him. And then years later, I looked him up. turned out he lived not far, a short bus ride away from me in Berkeley. Had a chicken lunch with him. He wrote me a letter, said, you know, I really want to reconnect with you. And I just wrote him back saying, how can we reconnect? We never connected because he didn't care. He didn't show up. So I don't have my point here on that maudlin tale.
is that I don't have those feelings of regret or the idea of missing the father figure. Though now having talked to you, like, maybe I should reconnect because I mean, talk about going to the cornfield.
Gareth (35:04.403)
Yeah. Sure.
Gareth (35:12.807)
Well, I don't think it's necessary. It doesn't have to be analogous to literal fathers. You know, the notion of what we lose by not seeing, by not giving ourselves to mutual recognition, the value, the equal value of other human beings, the sorrow that other human beings are carrying, the gift that they have as well, the way we dehumanize ourselves doesn't, it doesn't begin with
Jett Loe (35:19.632)
Okay.
Gareth (35:40.724)
genocide, it just begins with with sort of sneering scorn. And the fact that this film, despite the fact that it does, as we've already acknowledged, it ends on a note that we're going to reconcile the whole world, but they're going to have to pay to come and sit in those bleachers. The film does want to believe in the possibility of interdependence. Everybody gets redeemed. Everybody who's made mistakes gets to apologize and make up for them. And I guess I think I do really like that line.
They don't like neither Ray nor John say, I'm sorry to each other. They just say, do you want to have a catch? And sometimes, you know, the best form of, of, of an apology is the, the embodied amends of let's just do something else together going forward. And maybe, you know, given that there was a, given that there was a 10 year gap in the history of the film talk, maybe the climactic scene of field of dreams is about us.
Jett Loe (36:28.676)
Well, is that a commentary?
Jett Loe (36:38.326)
Is, I doubt it, but you never know folks. No, no, let's play some catch. Is that a commentary that men can't actually express themselves so they have to do it through a metaphorical hunting game? Yeah.
Gareth (36:41.863)
Is that a cat? Is that a cat in your voice? Was that a cat in your voice?
Gareth (36:55.955)
Well, they haven't been given permission. mean, like there's a desperate cultural torment of certain kinds of men that have been told they're not allowed to feel, they're not allowed to be honest about shame, they're not allowed to be honest about need. And it's really dangerous because it does, it doesn't mean it produces massive self harm and suicide and isolation and loneliness, not to mention like active acting out and harming.
other people. Now we live in a moment where, yeah, we're living in a moment where there is more permission. There is more permission. And I don't ever want to take that away from people. The Field of Dreams is your favorite film, dear listener. Bless you. And that it is no longer my favorite film.
Jett Loe (37:27.172)
Yes, you externalize it.
Jett Loe (37:42.646)
It is, whoa, we're gonna talk about that. So a re-watch of this film is, it's now, it's kind of, it's gonna sunk down.
Gareth (37:48.101)
no, it's not been my favourite film for quite some time. I'll always love it. because... Don't you find films rotate in and out? There's like a handful or a dozen films that kind of rotate in and out. then anytime you've most recently watched one, it comes back. Now, one of the reasons why Eyes Wide Shut is your favourite film is because you watch it every third day. Life force. Well, no, no, that's...
Jett Loe (37:51.758)
Interesting, I'm curious why that is.
Jett Loe (38:12.87)
Life Force, Toby Hooper's Life Force and Eyes Wide Shut.
Gareth (38:18.02)
Eyes Wide Shut is the favorite and Life Force is the greatest. Two different categories, right?
Jett Loe (38:21.274)
There you go, absolutely. But can you think of another film, watching this movie, it seems so clear that Ray seemed, was far less interesting than the James Earl Jones character or Dr. Moonlight Graham, played by both the guy that gets shot in Pulp Fiction and Burt Lancaster, or his wacky wife.
Gareth (38:32.453)
Hahaha
Gareth (38:38.332)
Well, he's he's less he is less interesting until the until the very end when he says I did all these things and I never once asked what's in it for me. I like, you know, he's something's something's something's breaking in him at that point. And it's true, you know, generally heroes aren't as interesting as supporting characters or villains.
Jett Loe (38:44.837)
Yes.
Yeah. You're in my corn. That's one of the lines. You're in my corn.
Jett Loe (39:05.222)
Is there a villain in this film other than the bank? Because the film apparently is 1940s Wizard of Oz where there's a bank. How big is the baseball field? Like an acre? You're not gonna lose any money. Here's the thing. I'm watching the film like, oh, we're gonna lose the farm. Their best buddy is a character based on JD Salinger. Was there a line in the picture? Was there a line that he's given all of his money away? James Earl Jones could kinda check.
Gareth (39:08.049)
The bank.
Gareth (39:17.512)
I know.
Jett Loe (39:32.762)
The man is taught in every public high school in America, even in conservative heartland. He can write a check. Here's 50K.
Gareth (39:37.894)
Yes. I think though, think that the Terrence Mann's character is, has so much integrity. He's clearly been refusing most of the royalties and donating them to the Southern Poverty Law Center or something.
Jett Loe (39:48.241)
Well, that needed a line. It did. just want to say I think that needed a line. How do you feel about the, speaking of lines, that heaven is a place where dreams come true? How do you feel about that? As an older person now,
Gareth (40:01.18)
come true.
It's Americana. It's Americana. It's all right. It's all right, you know.
Jett Loe (40:07.044)
Yes.
Jett Loe (40:11.056)
Would this film have been better if it had been scored by David Byrne with Heaven is the Place and maybe the soundtrack from True Lies. Not True Lies, what is that picture he did with John Goodman? True story, thank you.
Gareth (40:15.08)
No, David, I love, I love, I do, I do love David Burke. True, true stories, true stories. Yeah. Yeah. Have we exhausted the possibility of conversation about field of dreams?
Jett Loe (40:31.494)
It's never too late. It's never too late to make peace with somebody. And in that sense, the film did work for me because I just found out right around the time that I just watched this picture, I've just seen it, that someone who I had assumed was with us had actually passed away a few years ago. And I never reached out to that person, but it's never too late. Assuming you don't have a cornfield.
if you have a cornfield, then you got all the time in the world. Then it's definitely never too late because you can just wander off into it and summon the villain from something wild. We even talked about Ray Liotta. Ray Liotta is a very intense actor. And Ray Liotta...
Gareth (41:16.616)
No Ray, was you. I wonder how he felt when an actor called Ray says, no Ray, it was you. Does that interact with their inner life in some kind of surreal way?
Jett Loe (41:26.02)
Yes, because Kevin Costner's character's name Ray. Ray Eliade's last film was Cocaine Bear. In Cocaine Bear, he gets mauled terribly by a bear, that's his last. I prefer to think of him in this role. I'm not sure he...
Gareth (41:33.266)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Gene Hackman's last film was Welcome to Mooseport. Which is actually quite quite, it's not an unfunny film. It's not an unfunny film, but you know, the last scene of Royal Tenenbaums is a better scene to go out on. Anyway.
Jett Loe (41:43.418)
Haven't seen it.
Jett Loe (41:53.157)
Well, this was Burt Lancaster's last picture. So, see local hero, folks. Do you have any recommendation? You know, can I recommend a couple other baseball pictures if you're in the baseball mood? I know you loved EFAS.
Gareth (41:56.124)
Has the... Yeah.
Gareth (42:02.268)
Sure. Well, baseball movies, father-son reconciliation movies, magic realist movies, Iowa movies, cornfield movies, Children of the Corn. Have you seen Children of the Corn? Is this one you'd want to recommend? I don't think I... I'm assuming that. I don't know if it's a good film or not.
Jett Loe (42:07.94)
Sure. Yes. I'm gonna recommend, well, if you wanna see Bert, not good. That is not a good film.
Jett Loe (42:21.476)
Is that Linda Hamilton? That's Linda Hamilton, right? It's not a good film. I would like to have seen Barbara Crampton in the Linda Hamilton role, the wonderful Barbara Crampton from Beyond and Re-Animator and Chopping Mall, many other films. Also, she's a little cameo in Body Double. I would recommend, if you're into a baseball mood, John Sayles, Eight Men Out, which is about the Black Sox scandal, and that's who these characters are, the ghosts, the ghosts in the cornfield are the same characters in Eight Men Out.
Gareth (42:43.164)
Wonderful film.
Jett Loe (42:51.172)
I'd also recommend an episode from the seventh season of Deep Space Nine, Take Me Out to the Hollow Suite, in which our plucky heroes play baseball against some snooty Vulcans. And that episode has more heart about baseball, I feel, than Field of Dreams. What are you gonna recommend?
Gareth (42:59.506)
Okay.
Gareth (43:10.172)
Well, these are only curiosity pieces. The Natural is a very interesting film, partly because it's so bleak in so many ways. And the ending of The Natural as a movie is the opposite of the ending of The Natural as a book. Yes. And I think I think he's sort of famous when he went he went to see it at, you know, maybe a preview screening. And, and he said something like, you know, my my
Jett Loe (43:27.898)
Was that Bernard Malamud? Okay. Yeah, there you go.
Gareth (43:40.208)
My book is literature and that is Hollywood because they could completely invert the ending. It's still a beautifully made film. Ephos, which I know you had strong feelings about that came out late last year. I think a wonderful film about community and the role that baseball can play in people's lives. Fathers and sons is an interesting question. You got any thoughts about fathers and sons? Actually.
I know we come back to it a lot on the show because it is the greatest film ever made. think we maybe both agree that it's the greatest film ever made. Andrew Rublev from 1966. Certainly the greatest film I've ever seen. The Bell Sequence, in which he's about 17, isn't he? Who declares his capacity to do something that he literally does not know how to do.
Jett Loe (44:16.454)
Yeah, the bell sequence. Yes. yeah.
Jett Loe (44:26.384)
Something like that.
Gareth (44:35.299)
And he knows that he is risking his life to do it. And it is it is in some senses to get back at his father or to reconcile with his father or to prove something to his father. And yeah, just thinking about that film is deeply.
Jett Loe (44:38.758)
Yeah, and yeah.
Jett Loe (44:51.014)
Isn't there a line that his father didn't tell him the secret?
Gareth (44:54.799)
Yes, he feels betrayed or abandoned by his father and that's what's motivating him for this. The bell sequence in Andrei Rublev, maybe the greatest film ever made.
Jett Loe (44:56.026)
father did.
Jett Loe (45:07.216)
Well, and Tarkovsky's dad was this incredibly famous poet, right? And I'm not familiar with this poetry. I'm wondering about that dynamic. If you're gonna talk about father and son, you if you want popcorn entertainment, like Field of Dreams, I think any, I was just gonna say Last Crusade, absolutely, yes, you got it, Last Crusade, fantastic. Yeah, well, let's keep it family friendly, just like Field of Dreams.
Gareth (45:10.801)
Was he difficult? was he? Alright. Right. Yeah. Last crusade.
Gareth (45:23.865)
I was the o- I was the other guy.
You
Jett Loe (45:32.218)
Field of Dreams. Yeah, this wonderful script by Tom Stoppard or sections of it. There's a great resource online in which someone goes through two versions of the script to demonstrate what Stoppard, yeah, what Stoppard did to fix it. And boy, that's something. You know, Father and Son movies, there's The Shining. That's, that one maybe not so much. The Road, The Road is a good one.
Gareth (45:40.991)
yeah, which bits were Tom's?
Gareth (45:48.551)
Heartwarming.
Gareth (45:57.788)
Well, the road really is a good one about parental love to protect their vulnerable child at all costs.
Jett Loe (45:59.896)
Exactly.
Jett Loe (46:05.616)
Yes.
Jett Loe (46:09.752)
It's tough, you know? It's tough to be a human being. I'm a dad, I'm a stepdad. I've known the boy since he was tiny, and when he was a chatterbox and talking and bouncing around and full of love, and now he's in the teenage years, literally the hair's over his eyes like some sort of parody, and he just gives monosybelic answers of yes or no, and I don't know what's going on. How do I make that work, Gareth, dear listeners? What can I do?
Heaven is the place where dreams come true. There's still time before I walk into the cornfield.
Gareth (46:46.865)
Hopefully there's lots of time. you have advice for jet in response to that question, you can contact us at info at the film talk.org jet. want to thank you for watching this film after all these years. And I think we've had a productive and respectful conversation about it. And much to my surprise, you, you quite liked it. And my rewatching of it has, has made it dead to me and I'll never watch it again.
Jett Loe (46:58.235)
paid for it.
Jett Loe (47:11.706)
James Earl Jones could have just cut him a check. How much money are you making off one acre of corn? Nobody would, that's a rounding error, come on man.
Gareth (47:20.167)
It would have been a tragedy if I'd only gotten to be a doctor for 10 minutes is a beautifully written line. It's a beautifully embodied line and it is an important thing for us all to think about. Be, be, be who, be who the spirit of the good inside you calls you to be, not what the system tells you you should be.
Jett Loe (47:31.672)
If you like Burt Lancaster...
Jett Loe (47:40.678)
That's too bad, it's just a shame it wasn't Jimmy Stewart. If you like Burt Lancaster, please see Local Hero or Atlantic City.
Gareth (47:45.371)
Local Hero. Even if you don't like, if you like anything, if you like anything in the world, watch Local Hero.
Jett Loe (47:53.38)
I'm gonna watch Local Heroes tonight. Let's talk about that soon. I haven't, maybe it's gonna go down in my estimation.
Gareth (47:55.131)
Have you watched Local Hero recently?
I'm worried now. No, I mean, it's masterpiece, masterpiece.
Jett Loe (48:02.05)
Okay, I like comfort and joy too by the same director. Folks, don't forget if you want to get our bonus archive episodes, can go to patreon.com slash The Film Talk and we're on Facebook at facebook.com slash The Film Talk for our sins. I've enjoyed talking with you, Gareth, and I've got to think now how to connect with a boy before it's too late. Maybe go play some catch.
Gareth (48:04.871)
I do too.
Gareth (48:29.691)
CHOO!
Jett Loe (48:32.582)
You know I have five acres here in the mounds of New Mexico. It's enough space for a ball field. I could do it.
Gareth (48:35.335)
I'm touched. I moved. moved. Ease his pain. Go the distance. I've been Gareth Higgins.
Jett Loe (48:45.966)
I've been JetLow, we'll keep talking.
Gareth (48:48.283)
next time.