Gareth calls Weapons a lament that earns the right to call itself a true story. Jett and Gareth explore why this horror film feels disturbingly fitted to its moment, then remember the presence, mystery, and startling career of Terence Stamp. Horror looks backward, sideways, and directly at us.
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Jett Loe (00:50.733)
What do we do? Pre-show comment by Jett. do I have a pre-show comment? You know, Gareth, looking at the rundown here, it says there's a pre-show comment by Jett followed by your reaction. Apparently, I have not actually written said comment. I'm sure it was something pithy and witty, both witty and pithy, probably about the amazing film Weapons, which we're going to talk about in just a second. Does that make sense?
Gareth (00:58.818)
Well
Gareth (01:13.632)
I have not written down my reaction to your unprepared pre-show comment either, so it'll be spontaneous. And what I'll say is this, weapons.
How could it possibly be called that? What could it possibly be about? Why is this film called Weapons? It's the question on everyone's lips.
Jett Loe (01:31.821)
Let's find out after this. Let's find out after the theme music, folks. Okay, get the theme music and, ha ha, laughter, laughter. Whenever you're ready, don't think about the terrible trauma of our parents. my goodness, folks, it's episode number 308 of the Film Talk. I can't believe we've made it this far, but yet we have and we persevere on. Welcome to the Film Talk. Persist.
Gareth (01:46.123)
You
Gareth (01:58.159)
We persist. We persist.
Jett Loe (02:01.133)
We persist on. Folks, I'm Jet Low. Welcome to the Film Talk.
Gareth (02:04.076)
I'm Gareth Higgins. I'm Gareth Higgins. The conversation never ends. And dear listeners, sometimes I think that we might be better publishing, I think is the word, publishing the conversations we have when we're off air because they come from the heart. But so does this. We're going to talk today about a very interesting film. And I believe we're going to talk about a very interesting performer.
Jett Loe (02:19.022)
Yes.
Jett Loe (02:33.497)
You know, that's, yes, that's right, Gareth. know, we're, well, you know, folks, you know, we have the whole Patreon thing. We do that because that's that world we live in now. And Gareth and I were going through all the Superman films, because, you know, we just talked about the new Superman movie. we thought, oh, that's for a bonus episode. Let's talk about all the Supermans. Let's talk about all the Supermans, including the Supergirl. And we did that for Patreon episodes. And of course, we touched on those bonus episodes on that magnificent
Gareth (02:33.71)
Jet. Lead us on. Lead us on.
Gareth (02:51.352)
Supermans, supermans I believe.
Jett Loe (03:02.433)
I would say expensive meatloaf of a performance by Terence Stamp as the evil General Zod in the beginning of first Superman and then he's in the second Superman movie. And that led me to think, Gareth, Terence Stamp, wonderful actor, is he still with us?
Gareth (03:17.006)
Well, here's the thing, we recorded the Superman's episodes and then Terence Stamp died the next day. when he died, it actually made me think, did we properly give him his due in the Superman's episode? We did mention the greatness of his performance in Superman 2. And I think for most people, most people, that's their memory of Terence Stamp.
Jett Loe (03:23.426)
Yes.
Jett Loe (03:44.003)
Yes.
Gareth (03:44.031)
is General Zod. For a lot of people, it's his character in The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, which is a genuinely wonderful, thoughtful, beautifully written and beautifully played movie. And yet, Terence Stamp was a much more, a much broader performer. I don't mean that in the kind of...
superficial cheesy performances. The complexity of his career is fascinating from Billy Budd in 1962 through to last night in Soho four years ago. This is a great career and bouncing along the way he works for Fellini, works for Pasolini, he worked for all the Enies and Stephen Soderbergh in the Lyme.
Jett Loe (04:15.417)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (04:26.701)
Yes.
Jett Loe (04:32.333)
Pasolini, yep.
Gareth (04:41.838)
along the way. This is a fascinating person who's into deep spiritual practices. I've read a couple of his memoirs.
and an absolutely compelling screen presence. The one thing I want to say about him, because I'm sure you will have a lot to say that'll be fascinated by, the one thing I want to say is something unusual about him was, clearly he was an avatar of a conventional notion of male beauty. One of the most handsome people in public life in the 60s and part of an it couple, I guess, with Julie Christie, even ending up in...
Jett Loe (05:17.869)
Yeah, that's exactly right. That's right.
Gareth (05:19.888)
ending up in the Kinks' song Waterloo Sunset, Terry and Julie. And yet, he kind of never came across as arrogant about that beauty. And especially when he showed up in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, he did something that a more vain actor would not have done. He allowed himself to look, let's say, weathered.
rough hewn as it were and I get the sense he maybe didn't take himself, he certainly didn't take himself as seriously as General Zod does. Great career, glad we have the work. What did you watch to remind yourself of the greatness of Terence Stamp?
Jett Loe (06:00.397)
What you do know?
Jett Loe (06:08.365)
Well, I watched the hit, which we'll talk about, the great Stephen Freer's film. Yeah, first film Tim Roth is in, John Hurt, great movie. But you know, I think you've touched on something and I think vanity is really interesting because General Zod is Terence Stamp if Terence Stamp was not as consciously aware of his vanity. Because Terence Stamp was so beautiful, he couldn't help but realize...
Gareth (06:10.731)
Stephen Frears, yeah.
Gareth (06:28.023)
Sure.
Jett Loe (06:31.401)
help it be vain and then laugh at his own vanity because you know it's just an accident of birth. He looks as someone said about you know the late great Michael York and he has the face of an angel and General Zod is full... is he still with us? well thank goodness I'm...
Gareth (06:34.061)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (06:42.933)
Michael York isn't late. Yes! Friend of the show, Michael York.
Jett Loe (06:50.89)
Yes, he did do it. Thank you, Michael. He did do an interview with us.
Gareth (06:54.653)
I mean, I don't know, maybe he doesn't show up to appointments on time, but he's not late in the sense that you intended that meaning. Maybe you're just saying like he carries the gravity of someone who should be dead.
Jett Loe (07:06.913)
Wow, that's a really interesting statement. The gravity of someone who should be, who should, I'm not sure I do know what you mean. Let's, we're derailing.
Gareth (07:09.969)
Well, I don't mean that that you know what I mean the gravity of someone who has who has receded actually hold on We need to cancel this because he's actually quite seriously ill. So let's let's Let's say come back with Michael York, but don't call him late
Jett Loe (07:18.145)
I know, okay, I'm cutting that out. Okay, I look, okay. Yeah, yes. It reminds me of when a commenter said that Michael York had the face of an angel. So, Terrence Stamp is beautiful. I think there's that New York Times article where that he helped redefine male beauty. So, General Zod is not aware of his own vanity. takes it as if somehow, it's the old thing about someone is born on third base.
and they think they've hit a triple. That's an American baseball reference for our international listeners. But Stamp is aware of, and that's also, I want to say something about the amazing casting, right? Because was Lin Stollmaster who cast the Superman movies and he's very first casting director who won an Academy Award, won an honorary Academy Award. He cast over 400 movies. And the genius of casting, Terrence Stamp, kind of goes into, we talked about this.
On the Patreon, our bonus episode about Superman, the genius of casting Christopher Reeve and why that worked is because the character of Superman is from another world, he's more powerful, and they cast someone in Christopher Reeve who comes from American aristocracy, right? He's from New England. One of his great-grandfathers was an associate justice of the Supreme Court, and another one was the CEO of our big prudential insurance company for years. His family comes from the Mayflower.
Ancestor was five-time governor of the Plymouth colonies or American aristocracy. So now how, who do you cast against that? Do you cast another aristocrat when you play Zod? Well, you cast someone who was a famous fashion icon, who's loose and had a, he's not square and Midwestern like Clark Kent. He is a worldly character. He was in all the Eany movies. So he lived in Italy and that's the genius of casting Terrence Stamp, who was this, you amazing fashion icon.
So he represents a different way of living versus the square Midwestern Clark Kent, you have this sort of worldly, you know, man about the man about town. genius in that. But I would recommend the hit, which is a very simply the plot is you've got the gangster who turns, you know, turns state's evidence as it were, just like at the end of Goodfellas, spoilers for Goodfellas, good film, go see it. And then he's, you he has witness protection like in Spain. And then years later, assassins come to kill him or take him back and kill him. And our
Jett Loe (09:40.607)
shocked and can't deal with the fact that the Terran Stamp, the guy that, you know, is in witness protection, has no problem with them killing him. He's like, yeah, sure. And is at peace with himself. And so he carries this incredible presence. Great film to hit by the great Stephen Frears, and first film that Tim Roth did. But Terran Stamp, always a welcome presence. He'll be missed.
Gareth (10:00.289)
I recommend the Priscilla film and also read Rare Stamps, one of his memoirs. Yeah, yeah, it is, is, is. And I do think, you know, it's, you know, he had that period kind of in the, well, they say in terms of career wilderness in the 70s. But my understanding is he was actually on an ashram at the time. Who knows what his General Zod performance would have been like had he not ashramed.
Jett Loe (10:09.067)
Is that really the name of his memoir?
Jett Loe (10:19.789)
Wildness.
Gareth (10:30.221)
in that period. Okay, yes, where are you going with this? You have no segue.
Jett Loe (10:30.969)
Who amongst us has not wanted to kneel before Zod? Speaking of kneeling.
Jett Loe (10:40.013)
I have no segue, nowhere. There's no segue, absolutely no segue at all.
Gareth (10:44.319)
I nailed before the altar of cinema. I treated myself to a double bill last week. I went to see Weapons and Highest to Lowest. One of those films is the most joyful experience I've had in a movie theater this year. And the other one is Weapons. Why could it possibly be called that? As you know, Jett and dear listener, I am...
Jett Loe (10:51.427)
Yes.
Gareth (11:06.989)
You know, verse might be the word, not sure if that's the right word. Resistant might be the word, also not sure if that's the right word. Horror films trouble me to the point of, well, there's a part of that and there's, you know.
Jett Loe (11:17.827)
Yes. Is life horrifying enough? You don't need that in your life.
Gareth (11:25.197)
Some people, it certainly seems to me to be the case of some people who love horror movies and they're kind of a cathartic experience that helps people release tension. For me, I often find they just increase the tension and in small doses, I like them. I like the shining. I like Twin Peaks Fire. Walk with me. I adore the Exorcist. I find the Exorcist to be a truly cathartic, redemptive, hopeful.
and I understand why some people don't want to watch it. It's totally fine. you don't want to be put through an ordeal, unless it serves the common good and unless your motivation is purely selfish, that's fine with me. Then a movie like Weapons comes along, I read so much about it, I hear so much about it, and you, my dear friend, to talk about it. I'd seen the trailer. I'd seen the trailer.
Jett Loe (12:15.075)
Did you know anything about that? I knew nothing about this film before I saw it. Okay. That's great. Doesn't give too much away actually.
Gareth (12:20.941)
And one thing I do, and again, it's kind of a bit vulnerable to say this, when I'm going to watch a film that I suspect will...
disturb me, I will often kind of read a synopsis of it in advance and that helps me to go through the experience without being unnecessarily distressed. And you know, and people who know me know it's not like I'm running away from reality. It is connected to what you just said. Sometimes our experience of the real world is such that the last thing we want to do is go and sit in the dark and groom and be more distressed. And yet,
Jett Loe (12:35.129)
Hmm.
Gareth (13:00.469)
weapons seemed like, there's gotta be something here that's really worth talking about. Glad to say there is. Let me give a little synopsis of the film. We're in any town USA. What's it called? Maybrook? Is that what it's called? Maybrook? Maybrook. Yeah, and it's also, it's evoking Mayberry where the Andy Griffith show with.
Jett Loe (13:16.254)
Yeah, Maybrook, AKA, as you put it, yeah, Springfield, any town.
Gareth (13:24.685)
There's a lot of resonances in this film with other pieces of entertainment and culture. Magnolia is all over it. And actually, Field of Dreams, a movie which you refuse to see because you don't want to be unnecessarily disturbed in a darkened room. Isn't that right? You haven't seen Field of Dreams yet, right? Yes.
Jett Loe (13:33.485)
Magdolia. Everyone is saying Magdolia and it's true.
Jett Loe (13:45.849)
Okay, listen, listen, we all, all of us out there in the world and here in our little podcast world, we all have, no, no, that's not what I'm gonna say. No, no, we all, look, look, look, we're all broke. We all have little particularities. We all have little issues. We all have little things that get to us. Well, some of us do, but you know, in the 70s, they removed them as a matter of course in the hospital. But here's the thing.
Gareth (13:50.125)
You're gonna say we have a finite amount of time. That's what you're gonna say. okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. Eenies. We all have Eenies.
Jett Loe (14:11.117)
We all have particular bits of business that bother us, right? Maybe it's like, why don't you rinse the dishes?
Gareth (14:14.88)
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. That was beautiful alliteration. What do you say? Bits of business that bother us? Bits of business that bother us. Lovely. You do? Yes.
Jett Loe (14:19.587)
Thank you. Very planned. Yes, thank you. I do have some qualities. Here's the thing. And one of the qualities is not the best. Some little things movie-wise can bother me. In Field of Dreams, I tried watching it, because I know you love the movie. And I guess he's building something. Like, what does he put in something in his field, like a baseball field? Like another baseball reference. He's building a field. And we cut to, yes, we cut to like a wide shot of the neighbors watching him.
Gareth (14:34.977)
Yes.
Gareth (14:39.168)
He's building something. Yes, is. Yes, it's a relevant plot point.
Jett Loe (14:49.249)
And it's like the ADR, well, it's not ADR, but it's it's the, you know, the background artists, somebody it's like equivalent of Foley, the neighbor. No, no, my point is in the production process here is that they had somebody, you know, when you're watching a movie folks and just like background noise and there's people talking, that's separate folks in a room later, they've written a little script, it's just supposed to be in the background, like people are talking like, you passed me the champagne or whatever. And in Feel of Dreams, it's like.
Gareth (14:51.435)
Yes.
Gareth (14:56.48)
The neighbors. Yes. Yes.
Gareth (15:10.092)
Yes.
Jett Loe (15:16.931)
What's it building in that field? Ooh, I don't know. And it's so bad that I can't, yeah, I can't, I just can't. So I will try, I will try. How did we get to, can we move on?
Gareth (15:20.448)
Yeah. They actually say at one point, one of the neighbors says, damn fool. They say he's a damn fool. So, get started. Because, because there's a wonderful, this is not a, this is not a spoiler for Field of Dreams. There, there's a wonderful, like an in-joke, because the absolute breakout star of this movie.
Jett Loe (15:36.171)
Okay.
Gareth (15:46.955)
the 74 year old Amy Madigan who got her first Oscar nomination in 1985. She plays the anchor character in Field of Dreams and there is a scene in Field of Dreams where there's a school board meeting where let's say a kind of a, I wouldn't call it a riot.
but there is rage in the room against the people on the stage. And this scene is the first scene of weapons as well. And it's a bit off the beaten track.
This is the first thing to say about it. I haven't even really gotten to the synopsis. This is a movie for movie lovers. It's a movie for movie lovers. But the synopsis is indeed horrifying. 17 children have gone missing at 2 17 a.m. They have been captured on their family's ring cameras, running in an unusual way with their arms out to the side, of low down like an open pair of scissors. And they've completely disappeared. There's only one
Jett Loe (16:25.485)
Yes, it is.
Gareth (16:48.942)
from their class who has not disappeared and our story begins one month after these events when as you would imagine the entire community is deeply traumatized, absolutely shocked, nobody knows what's going on and they are scapegoating the teacher, Miss Gandhi, played by Julia Garner who is only the first of about six members of this cast who...
should all be handsomely rewarded for their extraordinary performances in this absolutely wonderful, flawed film. Weapons.
Jett Loe (17:27.459)
And I think we've got a clip folks in this clip. The aforementioned Julia Garner is confronted by Josh Brolin, one of the parents whose son has gone missing at a gas station. She's pumping gas. You can't see it, but her car, someone, and we can figure out who, has in red paint daubed the white car with the words witch, which comes back a little bit later. Spoilers, ahoy. Let's listen in to Josh Brolin.
funding Julia Garner in weapons.
Jett Loe (18:12.387)
You're me. I can't hear you, but you muted.
Gareth (18:15.287)
Sir.
and that is Weapons, written and directed by Zach Creger. I think the first thing I want to say is it's more of bleak mystery thriller than an out and out horror film. are some moments of dread. There are two or three jump scares, and there's some pretty bloody violence in it, but it doesn't drench the film. What drenches the film is a sense of something is profoundly broken at the center of our society.
Jett Loe (18:26.167)
Yeah, that's right.
Jett Loe (18:47.117)
Yes.
Gareth (18:47.182)
And you could call that the bonds of community, and you could call that the fact that many people weaponize their political beliefs. It's not enough for them to have the freedom to express themselves, but they have to dominate other people. There is the explicit reference to the proliferation of assault weapons and the kind of
I don't know what you could call it other than almost like a demonic possession of idolatry of the right to bear arms and how that affects a wider society. But the deeper thing at the heart of this, what I came away with most strongly was
what
Jett Loe (20:02.581)
It's self-defeating. This is what you're saying is that in the urge to dominate, you think you're preserving yourself, but in reality, you're constraining yourself. You're separating yourself from community by the very nature of
Gareth (20:12.01)
with
Well, you're also, mean, there's a character and I, are we going to do spoilers here or, all right, spoilers coming right up. So, know, horrifically and comically magnificent Amy Madigan in this film is enacting a curse on
Jett Loe (20:19.885)
Yeah, folks, spoilers, go see the movie. It's not that scary, it's not scary.
Gareth (20:37.684)
the children and well really on the whole community so that she can sustain herself through the life force of the children that she's got in a stand up comatose state in her in her basement. Hopefully none. Hopefully none. But but the metaphor that.
Jett Loe (20:50.201)
Who amongst us hasn't done this?
Jett Loe (20:57.347)
I love Amy Madigan, can we just call the film, Stranger Comes to Town?
Gareth (21:01.704)
Yeah, mean, the metaphor is true. think actually, like, the shadow side of our society is predicated on doing this, on sucking the life force out of,
labor and the young in order to sustain people who are unlike Terence Stamp in the hit, not willing to act their age. Right. Now, I'm not talking about a death wish or a martyr complex, but true elderhood comes when someone recognizes.
There's a time when I'm here to kind of give away to the next generation. And there's a time, there's one of a book called The Journey of Soul Initiation by Bill Plotkin who identifies two stages of elderhood. One is that stage I've just mentioned where you're giving away, you're mentoring to other people. And then there's a second stage which he suggests doesn't really happen until you're over the age of 80. He calls it the sage in the cave. And that's the wise person who is harvesting the fruits of a life and they're typically
someone you go to visit and you care for them but you also ask them for their input. You ask them for their advice. You ask them for their reassurance. That's what I mean by acting at your age. Amy Madigan's... If she'd read The Journey of Soul Initiation, Weapons would be a much more pleasant film. She is refusing to accept reality and she is willing to effectively kill children.
Jett Loe (22:17.721)
you're saying if she had read the book.
Gareth (22:33.162)
kill the next generation in order to hang on to her unearned power.
and her obsession with the zero-sum game that she can only win if everybody else loses. I can't imagine what analogies Zach Kroeger was trying to draw with circumstances in the real world. I think it's actually a mistake to see weapons as being primarily a metaphor for literal physical weapons. There is that extraordinary sequence when Josh Brolin is having a nightmare where he sees an image of an assault weapon appear over the house. It's one of the most powerful cinematic images
Jett Loe (23:05.015)
Yes.
Gareth (23:09.006)
of the year, but the film is not exclusively or primarily about physical weapons. It's about weaponized identity, supremacism, and...
Gareth (23:22.346)
The possibility of undoing that through asking for help is what you're left wondering about afterwards. It's like, when are we actually going to start acting like we know that we depend on each other? There's a whole lot more in it. I want to come back in a few minutes after you've.
launched your opening Gamba Jet, which I'm fascinated to hear. I do want to talk about Benedict Wong's character and his husband and a scene that was, well, one of the most horrifying things I've ever seen in a film. And I'll talk about why in a few minutes. But I can't just leave it there without identifying Julia Garner and Josh Brolin. I want them to make a series of double act detective films where they take out blueprints and draw lines.
Jett Loe (23:49.4)
You
yeah. Yes.
Jett Loe (24:01.613)
Yes.
Gareth (24:17.677)
and surveil people from cars and save the day. Weapons, it's an ordeal to watch it and it's totally worth it.
Jett Loe (24:28.441)
Well, you you bring an interesting point of wanting to see those two characters. You would want to see those two characters in a drama, even if there wasn't a horror element or genre. You know, an old drinking buddy of mine, Tom Zemanski, I think, pointed out to me after seeing this film that it's like, yeah, I could watch this even if there wasn't, you know, this witch or supernatural element. And that's when you know you're in a good genre film. like the genre doesn't even, it doesn't matter if there's a sci-fi or supernatural element, you would watch these characters anyway. It's, you know, this doesn't have to be the horror film version of Magnolia.
Gareth (24:34.879)
haha
Jett Loe (24:57.325)
I think everything you said is 100 % correct, buddy, and often we disagree about movies, yeah, you could call it, you know, it's a podcast. What you do, Gareth, when you're listening to the show, you just hit that 10, 15 second rewind button.
Gareth (25:00.971)
Can you say that again? Can you say that again? I just liked hearing it.
Gareth (25:08.319)
I don't have a rewind button, I'm always moving forward. I'm always moving forward.
Jett Loe (25:12.769)
Yes, and hopefully giving away to the younger generations. I guess you could call the film Stranger Comes to Town, from what you're saying, Gareth, you could call it also OK Boomer. Yes, mean, the film is complex and it's very rich and it is about the inability of generations to participate in community by not realizing that you're not giving up.
that in fact what you're doing is mentoring, that you're enriching yourself by allowing others to partake in the wealth, whether it be knowledge or finance or what have you, that you've gained throughout your life. Let's talk a little bit about this. You brought up the vision that he has. Josh Blahn has a vision of this assault weapon. And what's really interesting here is that it's kind of unexpected because the film could exist without that scene.
Gareth (25:43.839)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gareth (26:01.898)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (26:10.969)
It doesn't, on the surface, seem to apply to the whole witchy element that we have in the second half of the film. But for me, that scene, when I was thinking about the film after I left the theater, two things came to mind. And one of them is a very famous story that was dramatized. I haven't seen this. I have to see Mike Lee's 2014 picture, Mr. Turner, about J.M.W. Turner. Okay.
Gareth (26:36.375)
it's an absolutely... Can I tell you what I thought about that in one sentence? I came out of that movie and I said that is one of the few perfect films I've ever seen.
Jett Loe (26:46.169)
Okay, I'm going to watch it tonight though. I'm going see if I can find it somewhere on streaming. Timothy Spall, wonderful actor. So Turner, right? Great British painter. And so you probably know where I'm going with this, Gareth. There's the famous, well, there's the famous story, I think you might, I think you might, because there's that famous story about, you know, there's a salon or a painting exhibition and you've got a Turner painting hanging next to a John Constable painting, the rivals at some level. And at this time, a period of time.
Gareth (26:49.493)
Timothy Spool.
Gareth (26:58.163)
I don't. I think I do. I think I do.
Jett Loe (27:15.549)
you're still able to go in and maybe touch up and work on the paintings. So there it is hanging and you maybe can make some adjustments before the public gets to see it. And Turner famously came in, there's his big ships at sea, and he adds a little bit of red. He just adds a little bit of red in a boy and that just blows out of the water as it were, the John Constable painting that's hanging next to it. And I thought of that and I'll say why in a second. And I also thought of...
Orson Welles' production, his adaptation of Julius Caesar, called Caesar from 1937. And there's a famous story there and then a scene with Norman Lloyd who played Sin of the Poet. Also, Norman Lloyd, friend of the show, was on our show. And the fact that they were doing Caesar's before the public was basically allowed and the play wasn't working. And then, know, right before famous, Orson Welles' famous for this, under pressure, coming up with brilliant ideas, he altered a scene in which Sinna is killed. And that scene is so powerful.
Gareth (27:52.651)
Friend of the show. Friend of the show.
Jett Loe (28:12.301)
you know, it stops the show and his production of Caesar is considered, arguably, you know, maybe the greatest Shakespeare production in American theatrical history. And that's how I felt about that scene with the assault rifle, just like the little bit of red and just changing one little scene in Caesar. Having this assault rifle vision acts as sort of a signifier of the United States' complete inability
to confront its current moral collapse. That we're allowing these weapons to be available and we're allowing people to be shot and we're not doing anything. We're letting people kill each other with immunity. And right now in the United States, instead of arresting gun dealers who put people in cemeteries, we're arresting the people selling the flowers outside the cemeteries because they're not documented. It's just to happen the other day when ICE agents arrested flower vendors outside the Forest Lawn Cemetery in El...
So it's a signifier of an absolute complete moral collapse. Josh Brolin has a vision of his sports team, which the sun is apart and the kids are all gone. So that element for me, even though it seems to be outside of the plot of the film, the plot mechanics of the film, ties the whole film together and elevates it to a whole different space, if that makes sense.
Gareth (29:23.637)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (29:39.198)
It's so interesting because there's a couple of things. I don't know about what happened in the real moment when Turner added that bit of red, but no, no, no. I mean, it is dramatized in the movie.
Jett Loe (29:48.099)
Sure, it could be baloney.
Gareth (29:54.028)
I didn't see, I could be misremembering, but to me it kind of makes the Constable paintings irrelevant. It's not about competition. It's not about Turner being better than Constable. It's like, he elevates his own painting. And as you often do, you're noticing something that wouldn't have occurred to me. That image of the gun over the house, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Kreger was literally thinking about the Turner moment.
I'm actually not sure that it's outside the block mechanics of weapons and here's the reason. When it happened
in the film, part of me thought, oh, come on, right? And then I thought, no, actually, if this character, this Josh Brolin character, the father of Matthew who has disappeared, if he really was having a nightmare about that, it would make absolute sense in the current situation in the US, if something like this happened, if 17 children disappeared, we didn't know why. It would make absolute sense that he would have a nightmare, or that he could have a nightmare that would involve wondering if weapons, if physical weapons had something to do with it.
Bear in mind that nightmare begins with him kneeling at his son's bedside, having a vision of his son. We kind of know we're in the dream world. Well, we're not sure if this is a flashback or if it's in the in a dream world until about a few moments into it. And he breaks down in tears, repenting for having never told his son that he loved him.
To me, you know, could never tell you, I think he says something like, could never tell you then, but I tell you now, I love you so much, I love you so much, I love you so much. To me, that regret and the kind of specter of the gun above the house are inverse ways of approaching the same thing, which is what does it mean to be a real man?
Gareth (31:55.299)
One other piece, you say, get what you're saying when you say, we're letting people kill with impunity. We're arresting people outside flower shops. I know you don't mean this. It's not all of we that is doing that. And when you say the US has a complete inability, it's not all of we. There is a struggle going on right now. And the kind of, the...
Jett Loe (32:17.175)
Well, yes, and you could say this film
Gareth (32:17.854)
The current unfathomable is how does this struggle achieve humane common good oriented progress without fighting on the same zeros, some terms that haven't worked before.
Jett Loe (32:32.259)
Sure, yeah, I'm speaking in blanket terms and you could say that this film is part of that struggle. This film, even airing these questions. I saw weapons, people say people don't go to the movies anymore. I couldn't see my initial, I didn't go to a critic screening, so I couldn't see my initial viewing because it was sold out, right? So this film is part of that struggle. One of the great things about this movie is...
Gareth (32:38.448)
Absolutely. Yes.
Gareth (32:49.47)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (32:53.645)
Because movies don't have the primacy that they used to have, younger viewers are not as into movies or they're not as aware of what movies can do. And this movie is kind of a gateway drug. It's a word drug. I hate to say that, but it absolutely, I'm talking with younger folks, they see this film and it's as if they didn't realize what movies could do, right? So it's an entry point is. So it is part of that struggle. And I apologize, Garrett, thank you for calling me on that by saying these big, you I make we, but I sort of.
Gareth (33:03.605)
yeah. yeah.
Gareth (33:13.598)
Yeah.
Jett Loe (33:20.737)
I think what I'm doing when I say we is because I feel I'm not doing enough, right? So that's my wave. Yeah, can I just say one thing? I got two kids, right? They're 12 and 13, right? got a boy and a girl. Do you know, Gareth, your listeners, how many times I have gotten a text from their school saying it's in lockdown because there's been some incident.
Gareth (33:24.552)
Sure, well we're all part of the week.
Jett Loe (33:45.719)
And no matter what it is, they just automatically go into basically a school shooter lockdown. We are traumatizing a whole generation of children. I have no idea what the effect of this is gonna be. And this is considered a good school. This is a well-funded school. How, I'm not talking about, it happened once or twice or three times or four times. It happens all the time where the kids
Gareth (34:04.138)
Sure, sure, sure.
Jett Loe (34:15.225)
are going into the run, hide, fight thing. We are traumatizing the children of this country. And regardless of the qualities, the filmmaking qualities of this film, because this is a very well-made film, I am very grateful that it is made and that people are seeing it and talking about it. And this may be the most serious I've ever gotten in our 307 shows. I'm sorry.
Gareth (34:34.867)
Yeah.
Gareth (34:39.53)
Sure, sure. Well, I mean, we could sit with that for a while because the film deserves that kind of attention. And more importantly, the things it's talking about deeply matter. It doesn't pull its punches.
It's also not without hope. The last line of the film is the stroke of genius to have the film be narrated by a child. It's also a smart sly move to say this is a true story because of course it's not a fact. Well a little bit of Fargo exactly. It's not a factual story but it is a true story. is an absolutely mythically true story and it ends with the child narrator saying something like some of the children who even started speaking.
Jett Loe (35:13.305)
Little bit of Fargo, little bit of Fargo there.
Gareth (35:27.152)
again, which is a kind of openness to, okay, there is a possibility here. This is not just nihilistic horror for its own sake. It is a lament and it is trying to point out something awful and it's important to be this serious about it. Let me take it down to a kind of a more granular level in a way that affected me. Gosh, wow. I'm feeling it right now, a week after I saw it. Benedict Wong.
and Clayton Farris who plays his husband. The establishment of characters you can believe in and feel something for in this film is the kind of thing that a six to eight hour mini series does really well and Craig does it brilliantly in a two hour movie. There's a sense of, you really feel for Benedict Wong.
a high school principal caught between a rock and a hard place. Like, and he's gentle, he's kind, he's trying to play by the rules, he's dealing with this absolutely unprecedented situation. Yeah, well he's just magnificent.
Jett Loe (36:29.933)
He's playing, yes, he's playing the Benedict Wong role, as we can say. Listen, you know, I'm not a fan of Sunshine, as you know, but Benedict Wong is incredible in that film, sci-fi film. And I mean, it's hard to watch because he carries so much and he's probably the best part of that movie. I don't want to re-watch it because it's so painful what happens, his performance in Sunshine. yeah, he is a wonderful actor.
Gareth (36:40.542)
Right?
Gareth (36:50.026)
Okay, well here's one
He's a wonderful actor and Clayton Farris who plays his husband is wonderful in a typically thankless role, doesn't have a lot of lines, but we see their relationship introduced when they're walking around a grocery store.
Benedict pushing the shopping cart and Clayton picking up different foodstuffs and kind of showing two different kinds of foodstuffs and asking, you want this, you want this? And so you see a sense of the tenderness between them. And then they sit down to have a meal together and it's like six hot dogs made in a special way. And there's affection and warmth. it's an Aussie and Aussie moment. And there's something lovely. I thank God that we're in a moment where same-sex couples in movies don't
have to be portrayed as victims of homophobia or eccentric, right? And then something happens that to me is one of the most horrifying things I've ever seen in a film and it had a particular impact on me personally. Gladys, God bless Gladys, Gladys with the hair. Gladys possesses
Gareth (38:09.002)
the Benedict Wong character and he murders his husband in an absolutely physically horrifying way and watching it, gosh, I mean it really brings me to tears. No, I'm thinking about my husband watching this and I'm thinking about just the pure horror of a loved one being kind of cursed to harm another loved one.
Jett Loe (38:12.121)
Yes.
Gareth (38:34.566)
Also an analogy for some of the ways families have split apart in the current political era. And as I was watching I was thinking, this ruins the film for me. I don't want to see it again. I don't want to be put through the ordeal of watching this again, which is often a sign that the filmmakers doing their job well. You're supposed to be horrified. You feel the horror of it. And then this may not seem that important, but in the history of the portrayal of same sex couples,
and of gay characters, particularly gay male characters in cinema, I realized afterwards, by treating these characters the same way as they would have been treated if they were an opposite sex couple, he's actually, Craig is actually again, he's transcending the homophobic portrayal. Like when gay characters have died in cinema, it's usually AIDS or murder, and it's homophobic murder.
This may sound ridiculous, but this is not a homophobic murder. This is a evil witchcraft murder that has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the characters involved. And even though I don't want to see it again, because of the, you know, it just, it just made me feel at this visceral level, you know, about my own cherished partner and other people that I love. It's symbolic of how good a job.
Gregor does in making us think about the things that matter, not in an nihilistic way, but in a, like, we really, there is a sense of urgency here about treating others as you would want to be treated.
Jett Loe (40:10.059)
Well, again, that points to a world we live in is that by treating gay people as ordinary that that becomes a radical act. Right? This is the world.
Gareth (40:19.21)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know. Like, all lives have exactly the same worth.
Jett Loe (40:24.601)
Yeah, but also this goes back, again, but it's really good filmmaking and it makes you think about Ridley Scott and Dan O'Bannon. Dan O'Bannon, one of my favorite film writers and filmmakers, sadly no longer with us. But Alien, where you just write the characters without sexes. And so Ripley, you cast a woman, but it wasn't written as a woman. These are just people. It's interesting also, I thank you, Garrett, for bringing up the scene touching on.
Gareth (40:43.21)
Mmm.
Jett Loe (40:51.449)
the bonds of community and family and the destruction of families because one thing we haven't touched on, which is I think probably one of the biggest talking points about this film that people have talked about is that it's a meditation or a large part of meditation on alcoholism, right? Because one of the main characters, I mean, they're all kind of main characters, but one of the main characters, Julia Garner, everyone knows she's an alcoholic.
the wonderful Alden Ehrenreich, who basically he's John C. Reilly in Magnolia as the cop. He's, mean, he absolutely is intentionally, he's a recovering alcoholic. And then Josh Rolland, would argue is a secret alcoholic because we see him at his job site and he's made mistakes. And this reminds me of, know, folks I've known who are struggling with alcoholism and, they hide it, but they're starting to, they're starting to break down and stumble and they're not keeping it together. So there's also that strain throughout the film.
Gareth (41:19.251)
He is.
Jett Loe (41:45.363)
of what can be seen as personal failings, people will judge, you have addiction issues. And then we have another main character we haven't talked about, the wonderful Austin Abrams, who gives an astonishingly realistic performance of a junkie. Folks, you've ever known someone who has severe addiction issues? This is, I mean, it's like watching a documentary, it's fantastic. So that's another element that goes all through this. We think about the community fraying. What happens when a community frays? People can...
Gareth (41:57.766)
yeah. Yeah.
Gareth (42:04.906)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (42:14.871)
gravitate towards trying to alleviate the pain of loss of community by, you know, abusing substances like alcohol and drugs and what have you. And so that's part of the fabric of the whole film. That and the fact that this film's in the pocket of big wig with Amy Madigan's incredible wig. Folks, see this film.
I love movies in which you think you know where the movie's going or you're not quite sure and then something just happens and this happened, I don't want to spoil Barbarian because Gareth I know you haven't seen Barbarian. Barbarian goes in somewhere you would never expect. Amy Madigan shows up, the wonderful Amy Madigan, Sea Field of Dreams. She's great in it. She appears in this and she's fantastic. like it's a stranger comes to town that just blows everything out of the water. Wonderful film. Any last thoughts? We've gone on for a while. This has been a roller coaster of an episode.
Gareth (42:54.186)
She is great in it.
Gareth (43:06.694)
you know, I think it's...
great talking with you about it. It's an important film. It's so unusual for me to be thinking this much about a film a week after seeing it and also to be feeling it too. And I think that's what it kind of comes back to for me is it's not nihilistic horror that just leaves you feeling kind of a thundering sense of doom. It's more like a lament that absolutely earns
the right to call itself a true story. the fact that there are, mean, you know, Halloween parties this year is gonna be a lot of gladduses at Halloween parties and there's gonna be a lot of teenagers running around with their arms out to the side. I should mention that, you know, that's...
Jett Loe (43:56.254)
We should mention that. We haven't mentioned what the arm signify, which is another stunning thing, actually.
Gareth (43:59.432)
Well, well...
So we may think differently about that. What do you think the... So there's a particular, I guess, body movement, dear listener, when the possessed kids are running out of their houses, their hands are kind of, don't know, is it a 45 degree angle? I guess it's sort of like a 45 degree angle down and out, almost like a paper aeroplane as if it were standing up. What do you think it signifies? Because I have a very clear thought about what it signifies. I don't know if we feel the same way.
Jett Loe (44:03.971)
Okay.
Jett Loe (44:29.881)
So, you know, don't want to watch trailers. I want no spoilers. And then I was watching something the other day and there was a trailer for Weapons. I'm like, darn it. I don't want to see this. And so I glanced away, but I did see the kid. It's in the posters. You see the kids running. And my first thought was without thinking about it, it's like, is that the Naruto thing? Is that the Naruto? You know, it comes from anime. So it's kind of a kid thing. But then watching the film, it's like, no, it's Pan-Tai Kim-Fuck, the napalm girl.
That's what it is. It's the napalm girl. And then I have read an interview with the director who says, yeah, that's what they're doing. Which is again, again, this is horrifying. The US is bombing people and killing people indiscriminately. People are not doing anything wrong. They don't deserve to be punished. They're on fire because we're dropping fire on them. I'm gonna start paraphrasing Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now.
Gareth (44:59.049)
interesting.
Gareth (45:04.059)
Interesting, interesting.
Gareth (45:24.711)
Yes.
Jett Loe (45:25.625)
But I believe that's a, it seems to be that's an explicit reference. That's what I thought watching the film.
Gareth (45:31.081)
I read it as a more subtle reference to the cross because these children are being sacrificed. so the Christian imagery in this film is subtle, but you can't make a film about US America and the kind of supremacism that manifests here without references to Christianity.
Jett Loe (45:49.817)
Could this film be called not just, sorry, could this film not just, could also just be called instead of Stranger Comes to Town or OK Boomer? Can we just call it America? We just call this, this is America because there's a struggle because people are fighting back. Is there?
Gareth (45:59.676)
No, because, because, because, no.
There's, well, it's not just that they're fighting back. There's, I think these things interlock with each other. There's the, there's the, to use struggle metaphors are not, they're not adequate on their own because the best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better and oppositional energy always recreates itself. As Richard Rohr says, there is creative stuff happening. I am open to feedback. I'm open to feedback. I'm open to feedback. I'm not saying the only criticism of the bad is the practice of the better.
Jett Loe (46:21.241)
You sound very sure of yourself in that. that, are you, you sound very sure. Okay.
Gareth (46:33.737)
not saying we should never engage in oppositional energy. Sometimes oppositional energy is the only right thing to do, but it is always accompanied by a recreation of itself, and so we have to bear that in mind, which is why I think these days...
you know, an older person, someone who's kind of moving into elderhood said to me a few months ago that she was not going to go on protest marches. Sorry, I misspoke. She was not, she was going to discourage younger people from going on protest marches in this era for two reasons. One is that it might be more dangerous than it used to be. And the other is that they're probably not as effective as they once were because the, one of the purposes of protest marches was to convince a monoculture
of the necessity of change. We don't have a monoculture anymore. And you could argue that a protest march that's not being witnessed by the intended audience...
It's of limited value. It's of limited value. And especially in the kind of fake news era, a protest march whose meaning would be distorted through social media and news media lenses could actually end up being self-defeating. What she said as she's 65 years old, moving into elderhood, she said, I will go on protest marches because like Terrence Stamp in the hit, I mean, she doesn't have a death wish, but she's saying like the cost to me is going to be less than the cost to younger people. And then what she's encouraging younger people to do is
in her words, create, create, create. And like, I come away from this film, want, like, it would be such a shame if I came away from this film, which is about the horror of what happens when you don't love your neighbour, and when you don't ask for help when you need it. It would be such a shame if I came away from this film hiding from my neighbours. You know, the best response to weapons is to be radically kind to each other.
Gareth (48:30.169)
And when a supremacist culture tells you no, not to take no for an answer.
Jett Loe (48:37.271)
You know, I think listening to you just now, think you're making me a better person. And I'm not saying, you know, I'm not saying I'm moving into elderhood, but well, I'm getting, you know, I'm getting older, folks. And...
Gareth (48:43.305)
Well, it's mutual. It's mutual.
Gareth (48:50.353)
Not yet.
Jett Loe (48:58.169)
Kindness is important and it's okay if it's a radical act. It's okay to be radical when you're helping others. And yeah, maybe you can't go on a protest march.
Gareth (49:10.269)
What do you mean by that? I'm interested in what, I'm sorry, and if you want to take that again, that's fine. I'm genuinely interested in what you mean when, you know, it's okay if it's a radical act. And what do you mean by radical?
Jett Loe (49:21.699)
The word radical can seem radical. And I know that sounds a little bit like a joke from Mystery Man, Ben Stiller, which says, you know, if you don't master this karate move, the karate move will become your master. It turns out you're just flipping the thing the whole time.
Gareth (49:37.107)
Yes. Yes.
Jett Loe (49:40.959)
If we're in a place where that which used to be seem decent is now seen as indecent, which is what has happened politically in the United States because it's well, we're in a situation where because we have someone who has no decency is elected to a position in which they're supposed to represent the best of us because the United States has a presidential system, not a parliamentary system, which would split off the head of state.
Gareth (49:51.985)
or uncommon, uncommon.
Jett Loe (50:10.467)
and then the head of a political party. We're in a lot of issues. They made some mistakes, we did the Constitution. We're gone off in a huge derail. It's been a long show. Can we table my thoughts on radical kindness for our next show when we talk about Spike Lee's highest to lowest with Denzel Washington.
Gareth (50:27.559)
I hope we'll be talking about them forever. I think it's, you know, it's... So just because you brought up the presidency, I think it's important to note this film is at pains to not identify the problem as being one person. There's really only, there's actually no explicit reference.
Jett Loe (50:32.855)
That's why you gotta go to our Patreon folks, patreon.com slash The Film Talk.
Jett Loe (50:50.574)
Yes.
Gareth (50:55.879)
to Donald Trump. There may be one implicit reference to him. I really do think that Gladys's wig is a reference to his hair. But, and I'm also not sure that he has no decency in him, but I'm not going to try and make excuses for like a political ideology that is based on defeating other people and taking away their dignity, whatever the motivations might be.
Jett Loe (51:01.793)
Wig, yeah. Yes, yes.
Jett Loe (51:18.243)
Yes, a zero sum game, yeah.
Jett Loe (51:25.283)
Very Malthusian.
Gareth (51:26.493)
We have to find a way to respond to that that doesn't simply repeat it. Or as Ben Stiller in the truly magnificent mystery man would say, we have to find a way to not repeat it that doesn't respond to it. We have to wait a flip it that flips us.
Jett Loe (51:41.305)
Speaking of flipping,
Gareth (51:42.985)
We're gonna be at your local pancake pantry.
Jett Loe (51:48.377)
No, I was gonna say, you know, we don't have to resort to flipping houses to produce the show because we have Patreon. Go to patreon.com slash The Film Talk. You can always go to forget the bonus episodes, give us a couple bucks a month. Also, we're at info at thefilmtalk.com or at Facebook, we're participating in that, at facebook.com slash The Film Talk. This has been a great show. Thank you so much for talking, Gareth. I always learn something. I felt something, lot of things.
on this episode number 3030 whatever it is 30307. Folks, thank you so much for listening. Gareth and I really appreciate it. I'm sorry I'm speaking for Gareth but I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for listening folks. We're gonna talk again real soon. I'm Jet Low.
Gareth (52:26.535)
I endorse what you're saying. I endorse what you're saying.
Gareth (52:35.059)
Gareth Higgins, we'll keep talking.
Jett Loe (52:38.414)
next time.