Jett sees an all-time great. Gareth finds the experience almost unbearable—and may still agree. One Battle After Another opens a conversation about visual grandeur, political violence, white supremacy, resistance, vulnerability, and the difficult distinction between admiring a film and enjoying the experience of watching it.
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Jett Loe (00:39.768)
All right, you ready to go? Let's just get right into it. Are you ready just to get right into it? Ask yourself, what would Sensei do? He'd have a few little beers. He'd a few little, a few little what? He'd have a few little, maybe a few little beers.
Gareth (00:50.616)
sensei say what a few little beers yeah yeah if only if only there were characters in that movie movie who behaved selflessly
If only there were at least...
Gareth (01:08.522)
two characters in that movie that behaved utterly selflessly.
Jett Loe (01:13.292)
You're referring to Sean Penn's character, of course.
Gareth (01:15.444)
I am. I'm like, jeebers. Has there. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
Jett Loe (01:18.392)
Let's get into it. I've already hit record, so I feel like we should include this in the show. All right, let's go. Episode 309, three, two, one. Gareth, did you ever see a film in which everything is wonderful? Like even in a simple line of dialogue in which a character starts talking and the line starts something like, I'm a drug and alcohol. And then we in the audience expect and put in our mind the word addict. But in this film,
Gareth (01:35.038)
Yeah
Jett Loe (01:47.338)
And one battle after another, the line is, I'm a drug and alcohol lover. And the whole film is like that, unexpected, funny, and brilliant.
Gareth (01:51.886)
I'm joking.
Gareth (01:56.647)
And yes, it is. is those things. It's also it's also this is a compliment. This is a compliment. It might be the most unpleasant experience I've ever had watching a truly great film. And it was even more unpleasant the second time. So go see it, dear listener, go go see it. This this episode will be full of spoilers. It'll be full of spoilers.
Jett Loe (02:19.063)
I'm seeing.
Gareth (02:25.307)
for this extraordinary film that's a deeply unpleasant experience to watch.
Jett Loe (02:31.266)
Well, we can disagree about that. I loved every second. I was pleasated. I wasn't unpleasant. Let's get right into it.
Gareth (02:36.482)
You win.
Jett Loe (02:39.778)
get the music and then whenever you're ready sir.
Gareth (02:43.968)
Welcome to the film talk where as Jet always says, it's one big conversation about the art and meaning of movies. It's weird for me to say that. It's never me that says that. The tables have been turned just as they are on Sean Penn in the opening scene of this film.
Jett Loe (02:55.672)
That's how good this film is.
Jett Loe (03:01.144)
Well, please, I hope that when recording this show, you don't have the same kind of reaction Sean Penn did in the opening of this film. For folks who are not familiar, we're talking about Paul Thomas Anderson's brilliant one battle after another now in theaters in the United States. Give us a little quick synopsis before we get to a clip, Gareth.
Gareth (03:18.54)
Well, this is what you'd call an epic comedy. It takes place a little bit in the past, a little bit in the future, but it's a time that's recognizably our own. And there only seem to be three kinds of people in the world of this film. That is supremacist muscle, some of whom are wearing.
military uniforms and some of whom are dressed up as country club mavens. The second type of person is revolutionary activists whose intention is to overthrow oppression and liberate the vulnerable. And the third type of person is those vulnerable, unprotected people themselves. The first scene of the film is emblematic. We're thrust into the liberation of what appears to be
undocumented migrants being kept in cages by this loose band of radical activists calling themselves the French 75 Leonardo DiCaprio, Tiana Taylor being chief among them. There's some tear gas. There's some explosions. There's some unlocking of doors. And there is, as you've already mentioned,
this scene between Teyana Taylor and Sean Penn in which she turns the tables on him. He's brutality embodied and she manipulates him and he has a sexualized response to this manipulation. That's all in the first three or four minutes of this film. And there's a lot more to come. And I believe we have a clip.
Jett Loe (05:02.2)
We do have a clip here and as always, know, Gareth mentioned spoilers. Please see this film before listening to us blather on about it, dear listener, because it's so rich. It's such a rich, heady stew. It really deserves to be seen, especially seen on the big screen if you can possibly do that. Don't watch a pirated copy on your Zoom, for God sakes. This is a scene here. We've got a short little clip. This is 16 years later. There's a time jump in the film, though as the film says, not much has really changed. So the film exists in this timeless moment.
which is really interesting, especially since it feels so much of our moment, dear listener, and it's amazing when you think this thing has been in development for 20 years. He's been thinking about this for 20 years, and the fact that it speaks so much to this moment is actually, I guess, very revealing of what America is and what it has become, and maybe what it has always been. In this clip, Leonardo DiCaprio, he's been out of the revolution game for many, years, and he's trying to get some information about what's happening to fellow revolutionaries, but he has to go through a code word process.
So he's got to convince someone over the phone that he is who he says he is. Hopefully he remembers the code words and you'll hear Benicio de Toro at the end too as well. Let's listen in.
Jett Loe (06:11.585)
Okay, whenever you're ready.
Gareth (06:13.269)
Okay, and that was one battle after another. And I've said it's an epic comedy. And what I mean by that, what I mean by epic is a cinema of visual grandeur and powerful themes. This is not a subtle film. And while it doesn't have
I guess you call them obtrusive special effects. The closest thing to that is this astonishing moment when Leonardo DiCaprio falls off a roof. His fall is broken by a tree and then he gets up and walks straight into a taser and it looks like it was done seamlessly. That's the kind of closest to an obtrusive special effects. Even the two car chases or that actually there's three or four pseudo car chases in the movie.
that they don't go that fast. There's not a lot of spectacle with it. There's not a lot of explosions. What's epic about this film is the grandeur of its themes and one shot toward the end.
where Sean Penn, thinks he's supremacism's king, but he's really just a cog in the machine, meeting with a Native American tracker played by Eric Schweig from Last of the Mohicans when they, they, when they, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, when, yeah.
Jett Loe (07:25.942)
Yes.
Jett Loe (07:32.977)
last of all, Heakins, that's right, I didn't recognize him. I haven't seen him for ages. He's great.
Gareth (07:38.54)
when they meet each other with two cars opposite sides of the screen and a massive kind of mountainous backdrop. And it is the quintessential epic American cinematic image, like something out of John Ford or even a film that was not exclusively an American film.
It reminded me of Lawrence of Arabia. That's what's epic about it. Visual grandeur and powerful themes. And by comedy, I mean the kind that makes us laugh because otherwise we'd weep. I was being somewhat facetious when I said it's an unpleasant watch, but not entirely. I found it unsettling to the point of distressing because so much in this film is pointing out things that are happening in our world right now. Deeply painful.
things where undefended people are being further oppressed, where authoritarian ideas are shouting really, really loudly. And it is unsettling to watch it at the same time. What this film believes in is doing what you can. To challenge that oppression.
to live in solidarity with your fellow human beings. The diversity of the cast here, particularly those who represent our heroes, as it were. It's one of the most diverse cast in terms of gender, race and ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity that I've ever seen, certainly in a mainstream movie. And the film it reminded me of the most is Terry Gilliam's.
Jett Loe (09:16.778)
Avatar.
Gareth (09:17.837)
Terry Gilliam's Avatar. The little, the little. Yes, I would like to see that. Is Terry Gilliam's 12 Monkeys simply because 12 Monkeys is the first time I had seen a major studio film that must have, as you said this about a much more recent film that we reviewed years and years ago on the on the first iteration of the film talk.
Jett Loe (09:22.091)
I'd see that. That would be great.
Gareth (09:43.014)
I'd be interested to see if you can remember which film it was. But this was the first time I'd seen a big budget studio film that when the executives of that studio saw the rough cut, they must have been utterly shocked and terrified at the fact that what they had done was they had funded an avant-garde art film that actually had something provocative to say about the world.
Jett Loe (10:03.0)
Like 2001.
Gareth (10:07.607)
that's antithetical to corporate values. I don't know, it's a little bit like say somebody like a popular late night talk show host being apparently fired and then the backlash being so strong that not only does he get returned to his role in late night television, but he gives one of the most courageous speeches, I guess I've ever seen a public figure at his level make and more people watch the show.
than ever before. This is an art movie dressed up as a big budget epic. has one of the biggest stars in the world and one of the most distinguished actors in the world having fun making serious points about life. has a has a star making performance that is the quintessence of a star making performance from Chase Infinity. What an amazing name playing.
Jett Loe (11:04.212)
like a character name from the film
Gareth (11:06.061)
Yeah, absolutely. Playing playing who actually turns out to be the protagonist of the film, the character of Willa, her very birth stimulates the the the plot and motion. She is John Connor. She is John Connor. She's a focus of redemption. And she actually I mean, she's the great new hero of cinema. I'd love to see multiple sequels. The story of Willa. There's a lot more to say.
Jett Loe (11:17.688)
She's John Connor, right? It's the Terminator 2 thing. She's the John Connor.
Gareth (11:33.998)
I suppose the main thing I want to say is to qualify what I said about it being unpleasant. It's nowhere near as unpleasant as it is to dwell on the realities that the film is speaking of, but it would be a mistake to see the film purely as a challenge to authoritarian norms. It's actually an inspiration to thinking about what you can do with the power you have to defend the vulnerable as
Most of the characters in this film do, especially Benicio del Toro's martial arts teacher and Regina Hall's, I guess, guardian angel, you could call her. I'm all over the place, just like Thomas Pynchon's novels. Jett, imagine you didn't particularly like this film. You probably walked out 40 minutes into it and you'd rather talk about something else instead. Am I right?
Jett Loe (12:18.904)
I stepped out and got a cup of coffee there. Delicious cup of coffee. I had a few little beers.
Jett Loe (12:31.256)
No, no, you're wrong. I disagree with some of the stuff you just said there, but this, you talk about it being an unpleasant experience, and one of the great triumphs of the film, we're not even talking about the themes of the picture, but just the actual sheer movie making of it, dear listeners, because this is one of the most accomplished motion pictures I've ever seen. It can be, and it is throughout, simultaneously in any scene, suspenseful, like you're scared for the characters, it's thrilling, and it's funny.
all at the same time. And that is so difficult to do and the fact that it carries it on for almost three hours is really something. I'm gonna disagree with you here, Gareth. I don't see it as an art film at all. It is a piece of populist entertainment. It is designed to be popular. It is designed to be a blockbuster in the same way that we've talked about before in the old show, the old incarnation of the film talk, in the same way that James Cameron's Avatar is simple. It's designed to be populist entertainment because you've got to justify the huge amount of money.
being spent on it and he wanted with Avatar to make a huge big blockbuster. And I believe from the way the film is structured and the way it is so thrilling and suspenseful and funny all simultaneously and scary and shocking and there are jump scares, jump kills that are very very disturbing and they're very disturbing images like you said of people and children in cages that look right out of that selfie that Hulk Hogan did where he's literally posing in front of children in cages shockingly so.
Gareth (13:42.615)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (13:54.808)
So I see this as a piece of popular entertainment and deliberately so. But I think you're absolutely right. It's an inspirational film because the number one thing that all my friends are asking me all the time right now is what can we do? Things are so bad politically in the United States. We've got people that are apparently coming out of this film. It's again amazing how prescient or how of the moment this is. We have all these bad guys in the film running around and they dress like they're the military but they all very clearly have the words police on them.
because the police have become militarized in the United States, right? People are asking, what can you do? And this film is inspiring, as you said, because it shows the failures of a generation, but then it holds out hope. like, well, you know, maybe the next generation will be better. It ends on this moment of colossal hope, I would say, that warmed my heart, especially since it references Oakland, which is one of the towns that I was raised in as a kid. So it's a deeply populist film, a deeply inspirational film.
It's almost like the anti-birth of a nation, if that makes sense. I'm talking about the original one from back in the day. It's a huge sweeping epic that has so many themes, and we could talk for hours. I know we're limited by our time here. It's a must, it's a must. Hey, spoilers. It's a must, it's a must see moment. Talking about time, you know, we played that clip there for a second.
Gareth (14:55.372)
Mm.
Gareth (15:06.582)
Time doesn't exist.
Is it even?
Gareth (15:14.976)
What is it? Time doesn't exist, we're still limited by it? What is it they say?
Jett Loe (15:19.646)
something like that and then Leonardo DiCaprio's F-U to that is there is hold on hold on
Gareth (15:25.034)
Hey, hey, hey, Jeff, please, please, it's a noise trigger, it's a noise trigger. Slow it down, slow it down with the noise triggers.
Jett Loe (15:31.756)
Okay, well that was well again this again I think about how every line is teasing on stuff thematically so you or so you've got the idea of Performative action versus real action so comrade Joshua who was in the clip that de Caprio is talking with is all performer if he wants code words and DeCaprio asks for his coordinates Where is he based and he starts off by saying well, I'm between the stolen lands of the so-and-so, you know people's
Gareth (15:40.928)
Mm-hmm.
You
Gareth (15:53.92)
He does a land acknowledgement.
Jett Loe (15:57.3)
A land acknowledgement, if outside listeners don't know about these, I have to listen to, I have to, but I hear land acknowledgements all the time. So I work at a university, and so when you have a ceremony of some kind, say ribbon cutting, they always acknowledge the land that we're on, know, the various Pueblo peoples, which is great and necessary, but what happens when something like that becomes performative and it takes the place of real action? So in this movie, you've got the, that's one of the many dichotomies here.
There's community versus individualism we can talk about, Gareth, but it's also the performative action versus the real action. And that sequence, and it's set up beautifully. There's three conversations DiCaprio has with Comrade Joshua, and each one builds. And then by the time you get to the third sequence, it is literally one of the great comic set pieces in modern American film history. And here's the thing, this film reminded me of The Big Lebowski. When I saw The Big Lebowski in the cinema, I saw it in London, think in Camberwell or something, people laughed.
but it was the first time they saw it. And it was like, okay, just some jokes there. And it took time to see it and it took repeated viewings. I laughed, I snorted out loud during this film. I sat through, I watched it twice in one day, which I haven't done for how many years to a listener. used to do that all the time as a kid. And I laughed so much in the second time. I'm gonna see it again in IMAX in a couple days. I imagine I'll be laughing throughout because it is so hysterically funny.
while at the same time being horrifying. I would even say, you talk about unpleasant, I would say there's also the horror film element. There are shocking moments throughout. And the details matter in this film. Think about the people in cages. There's, I to say one thing, I know I'm going on a bit. I'm doing that in honor of my friend, Dr. Professor Artigar. You know, there's a scene in which two soldiers are walking, or two policemen are walking to tell Sean Penn.
Gareth (17:27.478)
Well, that is it.
Jett Loe (17:43.848)
that he's got an appointment. And this scene is not necessary because we could just see him where he meets with these guys called the Christmas Adventurers Club. As the two policemen are walking down, we're following behind like a Stanley Kubrick shot, and they're walking through cages. One of the policemen sort of brushes his hair, which doesn't mean anything. But what you see what he's doing is he's blocking his view of the children that are in the cages to his right. And it's a blink if you blink, you're going to miss it, dear listener.
but the entire film is filled with that. It's full of huge, grandiose set pieces where all the details matter. And that way it's an extreme accomplishment.
Gareth (18:22.252)
that it reminded me of a lot of films. And funnily enough, the one that was most in my mind was Doctor Strange Love, which a little bit like Psycho, like you and I are young enough that we didn't see either Doctor Strange or Psycho on its original release. And by the time I saw Psycho for the first time, I knew the plot.
of psycho by the time I saw Dr. Strangelove for the first time, I knew the plot of Dr. Strangelove watching one battle of them after another left me wondering, I wonder, is this a little bit like watching psycho for the first time where two major shock, two major shocks, which are now not considered spoilers. One happens in the first 20 or 30 minutes of the film and one being the reveal of who the killer is. And then Dr. Strangelove.
Jett Loe (19:04.214)
Absolutely.
Gareth (19:16.554)
which most of us watching it now think of it as, know, it's a smart satire, but it was released at a time when the threat of nuclear war was an ever present reality and President Kennedy had only recently been assassinated. So I wonder actually, was the experience of watching Dr. Strangelove when it first came out a much bleaker experience than it is?
I guess that's what I mean about the unpleasantness of this. I did laugh out loud many times during this film. And let's go to the violence. Let's go to the violence. You've already talked about it being like a horror film element. Unlike most action movies and you know what? This film is kind of multiple genres. One of them definitely is an action film, a chase.
There's even a scene that deliberately consciously evokes Teenage Mutant Ninja Ninja Turtles in a beautiful, beautiful way with these skateboarders running across the roof. it's, you know, one of its genres is it's an action film. Unlike typical action movies, none of the violence in this film is portrayed as catharsis. Even even the one act of lethal self-defense.
that happens toward the end of the movie is justified in plot terms by the fact that the alternative is that a completely innocent person will die. And after this character kills
Jett Loe (20:48.92)
And this innocent person, I mean, when she kills somebody, it has an effect on her. It breaks her brain. Yeah, because it's so horrific to kill somebody, yes.
Gareth (20:53.932)
She screams, she screams in despair. Absolutely. that, know, so to me, it reminds me film I've mentioned before on the show that's impossible to find these days for rights issues. There isn't even a pirated copy available online. It's a film called Bulletproof Heart with Anthony La Paglia from 1994, believe is written and directed by a guy called Mark Malone. That's a film about a hit man who is hired to kill somebody next Saturday night.
And the rogue variable is that he happens to meet her. She's played by Mimi Rogers and he falls in love with her. And that was the first film I'd seen in which a character kills someone and it destroys them to do this. It destroys them. Now, there's a lot more hope for Willa in this film than permanent destruction. But to see a scream of despair following a killing that in other movies would be a throw away.
like Indiana Jones shooting the swordsman in Raiders of the Lost Ark, which is played for laughs. Absolutely. It's not it's not triumphalist.
Jett Loe (21:58.749)
it would be seen as triumphant. Other films would do it as a triumph instead of actually, instead of realizing that taking a life is horror.
Gareth (22:07.499)
Not only that, it refuses to hate its chief villain or the let's say that the villain that gets the most screen time, which is Sean Penn's character, Captain and then later, I believe, Colonel Steve Lockjaw, as in all pinching novels, great, great, great names, great character names here from the.
really like the second time we see or the third time we see Steve Lockjaw when he shows up at Perfidia Beverly Hills, Teyana Taylor's character, when he shows up at her house with a bunch of flowers in his hand dressed in a blazer and chinos dressed the way his mother taught him how to dress. When he shows up with that bunch of flowers, very quickly the bunch of flowers turn into a kind of a battering ram. I felt
Jett Loe (22:47.359)
like a little boy.
Jett Loe (23:00.546)
Those are the two options. Flowers or battering ram. Nothing in between. Yeah.
Gareth (23:01.971)
I've absolutely those are the only two options he knows. And. The abiding feeling I had about his character during the movie, alongside my anger at the way he was treating people was quite simply pity. I pitied this character when toward the end of the film, he finally gets initiated into the Christmas Adventurers Club. And please, we've got to talk about the the.
the I'm going to call it demonic. And I mean that almost literally the demonic distortion of Christian theology. The the the distortion of what even poetically Christmas is supposed to mean the coming of the Prince of Peace. They literally you they invoke the idea of the golden rule, which is to do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. And they they they
Jett Loe (23:55.16)
Yes.
Gareth (23:57.068)
the, you know, without, what would be the term?
It's not without nuance. They're revealing what tribalist religion does. know, healthy religion is supposed to expand our sense of belonging. It's supposed to increase the size of the table and who is welcomed there. And these guys, led by the great Tony Goldwyn, who apparently when he's hiring henchmen assassins, he only hires people who look like him because that's what they want the world to look like.
Jett Loe (24:33.74)
Yeah, was, again, a great detail, right? So Tony Goldwyn is, Tony Goldwyn is, sorry, you're breaking up so much I can't tell if I'm stepping over here or not because you've just been stuttering for the last couple of minutes. I'll just mention Tony. Yeah, the fact that you see Tony Goldwyn very recognizable and he's played the President of the United States on TV shows and everything, and then they hire a henchman, and when you first see the henchman you think it's Tony Goldwyn because they've got someone who looks just...
Gareth (24:35.115)
They want everyone to look like them. And that actor, we've got to...
Gareth (24:48.382)
right, okay. Yeah, go ahead.
Gareth (25:01.503)
Yes.
Jett Loe (25:03.114)
like him, so it's a doubling. It's very, it's reminiscent of Eyes Wide Shut in which Tom Cruise has a patient's daughter who says she's in love with him and then you see her boyfriend and it's like a taller, bigger version of Tom Cruise mirroring. It's really, it's a wonderful detail. Again, the film is full of details like
Gareth (25:18.475)
Well, yeah, that actor, John, I don't know how to pronounce his name, Hugenacker. You're right. I thought it was Tony Goldwyn first time we see him. First time we see that actor, he knocks on somebody's door. He's greeted by a friendly elderly lady who offers him pancakes. And the tone with which they have that conversation. And he says, are these your famous pancakes? Made me think about Eyes Wide Shut.
When Sidney Pollock says to Tom Cruise, I'll send you over a case. And what he really means is I'll have you killed if you step out of line. like that. So when Tony Goldman says we live by the golden rule, he's simply manifesting shadow theology that already exists in the world. And that is do unto others as long as they are the others who are like us and the others who are like us are entirely the same as we are.
Jett Loe (25:49.451)
yeah.
Gareth (26:17.927)
So I'll I I.
You know, we don't need to labor the point. There is a form of theological distortion in this society right now that's always been there that defines the insiders, not on the basis of their humanity, but on the basis of their sectarian identity. And this what this film wants to inspire us toward is a multivariate, diverse, inclusive identity. And it doesn't leave us hating Sean Penn. It leaves us feeling pity.
for him. Or it did for me anyway.
Jett Loe (26:54.38)
You absolutely feel pity for Sean Penn at the end, and that's a fantastic point because he is someone that was so scarred inside, and then it manifests itself at the end of the film where he becomes horribly scarred. And he has a still quiet death, and then is incinerated, and I suppose you could say that sort of, are we evoking the Holocaust here by having someone gassed and then burnt up? It is...
Gareth (27:12.031)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (27:22.868)
a situation in which the heart does feel pity, pity for this terrible person. And you can't help but wonder what happened to this person when they were younger, that they had to create this shell around themselves. And that's referenced at end of the film when his, spoilers, this character, his daughter Willa, asks him why his shirts are so tight. And you see these, first time we see his arms exposed, and they're absurdly bulging with absurd veins popping out.
One wonders how could you live your life like that where you have to constantly pump yourself up and she says he has lifts in his shoes. So it is really a moment of sadness that we feel for this character. And there's another character that's almost the flip side of that and it's Benicio del Toro, where Sean Penn is closed, working on himself. I'm sure I alcohol doesn't touch his lips. There's another character who's more of a libertine who just has a few small beers now and again.
Benicio del Toro. By the way, he's also drinking, again, we could go on for hours, but the details, the fact that he's drinking Modelo is really interesting, right? Because it is the number one beer in the United States. What used to be the number one beer in the United States, it was Budweiser. So when we first see, when the film first opens, we see Budweiser surrounding Leonardo DiCaprio. He's got a big Budweiser, like lampshade. And now time has passed. We've gone from the old to the new. That's the change. Not much has changed. The only change is that people now drink Modelo instead of...
Gareth (28:26.347)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (28:31.017)
Hmm. Hmm.
Jett Loe (28:48.152)
Budweiser, which is a lovely detail. Could we talk just for a minute about something technically I want to mention? And that is, think, tell me, you know, I love French Connection, love To Live and Die in LA, Mad Max 2, slash Road Royer, Terminator 2, all these have great car chases. But they didn't necessarily reinvent the car chase, and maybe Bullet did.
Gareth (28:56.725)
Of
Jett Loe (29:14.84)
the Steve McQueen film, which is maybe not the world's best film, but it's famous for having this car chase in which you can literally see Steve McQueen driving the car. To me, when I saw this film, Gareth, dear listeners, this is the first reinvention of a car chase in American movies that I've seen in what, in maybe in 50 or 60 years. Does that make sense? It is an absolutely stunning sequence and it does something that I've never seen before in the cinema. On the second screening, I looked around the audience. People were ducking and moving in their seats as if they were on a motion.
simulator ride, the kind of things you you go and you put on your 3D glasses and yet this is in two dimensions. The filmmakers, Paul Thomas Anderson and his folks, his collaborators figured out a way to create an engaged interactive car chase in a way that I've never seen before. Does that make sense?
Gareth (29:59.531)
Oh yeah, I mean, I don't know. We might call it a, I'm going to call it a car slow because that's another thing that's so strange, but it is utterly gripping, but we're not like zooming along these cars. We're actually going up and down like, you know, on a series of camels, uh, humps, ocean, ocean waves.
Jett Loe (30:16.66)
Ocean waves, they're ocean waves as Benicio de Toro says.
Jett Loe (30:23.254)
And as in my imagination, Gareth, there's three cards in the chase. There's one red, one white, and one blue.
Gareth (30:28.491)
I that is correct that there is and there's also the black there is the black SUV though that that the lock jaws and let's let's talk about parenthood in this film and in Paul Thomas Anderson's work generally.
Jett Loe (30:30.614)
I know there's a red one and a white one and a blue one. It's red, white and blue. It's the American flag.
Gareth (30:54.963)
Leonardo DiCaprio and Tiana Taylor here are not portrayed as perfect parents by any means. And part of why the last part of the film is is inspirational and has a slightly I don't call it a sour taste, but it's not it's not euphoric. I got the sense you experienced it as euphoric is that the 50 year old, I guess, his character is more like 45 and in the film, but
Leo's character is stoned and taken a selfie, right? That's what he's doing at the end of the film while his daughter goes to do a seven hour run trip to join a protest for MKU. What does MKU stand for? Mankind United. And it's not clear to me if the film is judging Bob, Leo's character, originally named Pat, because
All he's doing these days is he's on the sofa, get a pad, smoking a joint and taking a selfie. It's not clear to me if they're judging him for that or saying it is actually time to hand over to the next generation. There's something really smart about the film on first viewing. You might judge Perfidia Beverly Hills for abandoning her family, but there's this later revelation that at least makes her decision comprehensible.
Jett Loe (31:56.524)
Ghetto Pat, Ghetto Pat, please. Bob Ferguson, the Rocket Man.
Gareth (32:24.23)
and that she has mixed feelings about her daughter because of who her daughter's father was. And then of course that ties together beautifully at the end with this letter of apology and reconciliation. Anyway, this question of what have our parents' generation left us and how both fascism and all I mean by fascism is the belief that some lives are worth
Jett Loe (32:25.078)
Yes.
Gareth (32:50.27)
more than others and the attempt to institutionalize that at the level of the social structure. Both fascism and reconciliation begin in the home. And some of the things that our parents generation have left us as legacies need to be left behind. And as I was thinking about that, that's been the heart of Paul Thomas Anderson's work from Hard Eight or Sydney. His film from I think 1990.
six, which is all about father figures trying to come back and rescue what they left behind. Magnolia literally has a character talking about the sins of the fathers repeating in the next generation. There will be blood is about a demonic father. The master is about a father figure in the form of Philip Seymour Hoffman, manipulating and exploiting kind of a mentee figure. So that's in there.
as well. You could go to watch this. mean, you're probably not going to be able to watch this and not think about current American socio-political reality, but you'd be missing something if it doesn't also leave you thinking about intergenerational mentoring, legacy mistakes and how to care for each other.
Jett Loe (34:09.26)
Yeah, and that's why I found that inspirational, right? Because even though, you know, Bob Ferguson, aka, Ghetto Path, Rocket Man, is an F-up, and we see him in this wonderful shot where he's, you the smoke, he's vaping all the time, he's coming out of his nose at the end, and he also has a little wee glass of wine. Not in a wine glass, to your listeners, but it's like a little tumbler, the kind you might have in a bathroom or something like that. But he takes a selfie at the end, right? And throughout the whole film, he's trying to find a charger for his old-fashioned phone, and he's not technologically adept.
Gareth (34:35.467)
You
Jett Loe (34:39.064)
But who is the character of Benicio del Toro who suggests earlier, let's take a selfie. So Benicio del Toro is within the current, right? He is up to date with what the kids are doing and Bob Ferguson, AKA, Ghetto Pat, AKA, the Rocket Man is not, but at the end he is. And so he develops and grows and at the same time he is supportive of...
the next generation that is carrying on the work, even if his generation didn't fail. Maybe the next generation will do the job. Maybe they won't. Maybe it's always a continual progress. So I think you're right, Gareth. There's a lot of themes that are locking here, and that's why it's such a technically well put together film in the way that it interlaces the themes, almost like two hands, two friends, maybe enemies that are shaking hands for the first time, their fingers intertwined. And that's how it feels.
thematically. It's like a beautiful weaving that has a scene of destruction and a scene of beauty on it. You can imagine the warp and the wolf and the threads intertwining and that's one of the great things about this film. So for me it ends on this beautiful, hopeful note. And again I also love the fact that you can look at it as a version of Terminator 2 in which
Gareth (35:50.731)
We'll have it.
Jett Loe (35:54.68)
Leonardo DiCaprio's character, aka Bob Ferguson, aka Ghetto Pad, aka Rocket Man, is Sarah Connor. And in Terminator 2, the kid, Ed Furlong, he doesn't believe these stories. His mom is crazy, and it's the same thing here. And then it turns out, oh no, it's actually all true, and she has to go on the run. Ed Furlong, or Willa, has to go on the run. So it's great, because it works again as an action film, as a thriller, and as a laugh-out-loud comedy. Anything else you want to...
Gareth (35:55.089)
sure.
Is Sarah Connor?
Gareth (36:06.143)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (36:23.562)
Yeah, well, I want to say one thing and then and then. And then and then I want to I want to ask you about a big bit of business, but I want to say one thing, that is, you know, the film's nearly three hours long, but Anderson's cutting, which the first time I really noticed how great he and his editors are doing something with with.
Jett Loe (36:24.002)
just want to end with any of little, bits of business, little bits of business.
Gareth (36:50.122)
with pace was in Magnolia where there's the sequence where this one piece of music carries you for what feels like about 15 minutes and about 700 different things happen in that 15 minute period. There's this really strange thing. He has the capacity to make sequences in the film feel really substantial by the cutting. But overall, the film does not feel like it's 170 minutes long. goes.
Jett Loe (36:59.062)
Yes. Yes. In the beginning. Yes.
Gareth (37:20.21)
like a breeze. then afterwards you back, you go back and go, hold on, it had this and this and this and this. had all these things. I was writing about it this morning and just trying to remember how many clearly identifiable characters there are in it. We've mentioned most, but not all of them. We haven't talked about what I guess is the mother superior of the convent where old activists go to hide. That's played by April Grace. The first time I saw her in a movie and frankly, the only time I've seen her in a movie is she plays the journalist.
who exposes Tom Cruise's character in Magnolia as someone whose whole public edifice is based on a lie. And I like the fact that she's now running a convent in the desert to keep people safe. Anyway, the cutting makes it feel like a quick film with a lot of substance. Here's my question, Jack. Here's my question. And I know you know that I will have been thinking about this through...
Jett Loe (38:12.962)
Yes.
Gareth (38:16.874)
through the film because of my own life experience and growing up in the North of Ireland, I'm always, I guess my antenna are up whenever revolutionary violence is part of a story because I saw and witnessed and experienced the brokenness of my own society and that at the end of the day, the use of violence for political ends.
is a pretty serious mistake most of the time. It certainly creates unintended consequences that make life difficult for everybody. And that's without prejudice to the reasons why people may feel that they need to use violence to overcome oppression. Anyway, I think about that simply because of where I grew up. So my interest was piqued when...
A character says in voiceover, revolutionaries start out fighting demons, but end up fighting each other. Like it said fairly early in the film, I have some thoughts about what the film advocates at the end, but I'm interested to ask you first, what do you think Willa's tactics are going to be going forward? And does this film, does it, does it seal an argument that
given what she's just been through, that the film's not advocating the use of violence for political ends, that the mankind united protest she's going to in Oakland has the potential to make things better without hurting anybody along the way.
Jett Loe (40:01.314)
I'm gonna just off the record. I'm gonna respond Gareth, but for like the last 10 15 minutes I'm only getting one out of every five words So I'm just kind of guessing what you're saying. So yeah, I can't I can't I'm literally freeze-frozen. literally one, but I think I think I think I I got what you said,
Gareth (40:07.458)
really?
Okay. Huh.
Jett Loe (40:16.972)
I think there's a clue early on about violence, wanting to change, wanting to make things better, but also how people can use these movements to become self-aggrandizing, right, because, or to try to help their own egos, because that's what Sean Penn is doing, is he's bigging himself up. And that's in a scene in Bank Robbery, in which a character, Jungle Pussy, is lecturing everybody about how strong she is and how she is a revolutionary.
Gareth (40:39.454)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (40:46.38)
And then off camera, she is a shocking gunshot and the character, Prophitia, kills somebody, just an ordinary person. And it's horrific. And maybe she didn't even have to do it. It is horrific. And that is telling us, wait a minute, what are we doing here? And this is sort of again, it raises up the themes of the performative. I'm a revolutionary versus the actual work, which could be horrific. And to me, is an, not to say incitement.
Gareth (40:49.447)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Gareth (40:54.952)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (41:13.214)
It is, but it is an assignment to nonviolence. It is seen as horrific. And by the end of the film, you're asking me what I think Will is gonna be doing. What are her levels of resistance? Well, knowing how adept she is with technology and also with her body because she's, know, has a certain color belt and sensei's dojo, I feel that she's gonna be some sort of subversive culture jammer that she's going to use.
the technology that we have, the culture that we have to show people, those of us, it's hard, you're in this world. If you're like a goldfish, right, that's your world. You're in the ocean. You don't know you're in the ocean. It's like air to you. We're in an ocean of air. We don't feel it, but we're actually in an ocean. The ocean of air is who walked this planet. So I feel that she's going to do something that is nonviolent, because we've also then have that horrific moment where she kills somebody and breaks her brain for a while, and it is...
It is genuinely horrific. So I have not thought about it until you disposed of that question, but I don't see her out there killing people or blowing things up. And we do see someone throw a Molotov cocktail in the film. And I read a review, I wanna guess who it was. The reviewer referred to that person who threw the Molotov cocktail as a protester. And this is the big, big.
Gareth (42:12.371)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (42:25.514)
Yeah we do.
Gareth (42:34.024)
Wrong. Yeah.
Jett Loe (42:35.16)
I'm not gonna mention who it is. It's a big, big, it's big reviewers you can get. And it's like, no, they missed it. That was not a protester. That was an undercover cop who did it to incite violence. So I think the film is coming firmly on the side that violence may not be the answer.
Gareth (42:40.788)
Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Gareth (42:54.868)
Talking about it was more pleasant than watching it, but watching it again is going to move more pleasant because of this conversation, for me at least. It's a great film. It's a great film.
Jett Loe (43:04.335)
It's laugh out loud funny. It's big Lebowski funny. You gotta watch it a few times. I can't wait to see it again on Thursday in IMAX to the listeners. It's a hell of motion picture. It's one of the all-time greats. One battle after another. As Sean Penn says to the character of Avanti in the film, it's just one thing after another, isn't it? And he doesn't get a response. And it is. The battle never ends.
Gareth (43:18.344)
Wow.
Gareth (43:25.758)
Well, he doesn't.
Jett Loe (43:30.038)
He hasn't got a response. The battle never ends. It's one damn thing after another, dear listeners.
Gareth (43:32.795)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm tempted to keep going, but we should leave it there because there's too much to say about this film.
Jett Loe (43:52.024)
So yeah, there's what to say about this film.
Gareth (43:54.366)
I would there's too much to say about this film, such as the pivotal moment when Avanti changes his mind and puts into practice the ethics that he's been aspiring to, partly because Sean Penn makes the mistake of saying...
Jett Loe (44:06.944)
And why is he called Avante? Isn't Avante the name of a revolutionary car? car that, by, is it Raymond Loewy, the great designer, took off all the chrome off an American car and switched it up? I mean, there's a lot here. How about the fact, when you're watching a film, we kind of say one thing, there's sequences with an interrogator, a cop interrogator, that feel like a documentary. And as I was watching, I'm going, you know what, that guy, that's a real guy, isn't it?
Gareth (44:15.401)
It's
Gareth (44:20.081)
Is it? It's...
You can't.
Gareth (44:28.485)
yeah, yeah.
Jett Loe (44:34.314)
that they got a real cop and it turns out he is a real guy. Yeah, he spent 20 years in Homeland Security or whatever.
Gareth (44:34.365)
Yeah, yeah, he is a real guy.
He's a master fly fisherman, according to a bio I read somewhere.
Jett Loe (44:43.724)
Well, here's the thing. I want to say one thing about this guy though. Good for him. I want to say one thing about, did you think maybe he writes a book about how catching, like doing the fly fishing is like interrogating because it takes time. But here's the thing. Guess what? Nothing bad happens to him. We don't see him get a, you know, he's doing the work. He's a cog in the machine doing terrible things and nothing happens to him. And isn't that the way?
Gareth (44:59.517)
Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yeah. His name is his name is Jack. His name is Jack Trout. So I think the master fly fisherman thing, what is the mass? Maybe. Maybe in the film, his his his character is called Government Worker. But maybe the master fly fisherman thing is a fake bio being used simply to authenticate the casting choices in this film. What I was going to say about Avanti, which may well be the name of a revolutionary car. It's also the name
Jett Loe (45:11.722)
in real life or in the film?
Gareth (45:32.967)
of a film by your favorite director Billy Wilder. Isn't there a Billy Wilder film called Avanti?
You're not hearing anything I'm I was saying Avanti is the name of a film by your favorite director, Billy Wilder. And blink if you miss it or I guess you'd have to blink your ears in that scene where Lockjaw says it's one thing after another. He then induces the conditions whereby Avanti changes his mind ethically by saying to him, why don't you take her down to the 1776?
Jett Loe (45:43.212)
You broke up, have to win again, buddy. I can't hear you.
Gareth (46:11.271)
Motel, I wave if you can hear me. No, you can't hear me.
Jett Loe (46:17.036)
Maybe, can you turn off your camera? Maybe? Maybe that'll help, because I can't hear it work. Can you turn off your camera and be able to just help the bandwidth?
Gareth (46:20.805)
Wow. Anything here? Anything here?
Jett Loe (46:25.688)
Yeah, I can hear you. I don't think the 1776 is the name of is that the name of the hotel or is that what they're called? Like the Patriot frontiers. Okay.
Gareth (46:26.972)
It's certainly like...
That's the name of the hotel. Oh, okay. All right. Well, cut that, cut that. You don't need to worry about that. My words on Avanti were...
Gareth (46:43.657)
You can cut those.
Jett Loe (46:48.92)
Okay. Well, we've gone on for a bit, our listeners. We appreciate the time. I love talking about good movies with Gareth. Sometimes not every film is a winner, but this one is. If you want to support the show, don't forget you can go to our Patreon page. Go to patreon.com slash The Film Talk or go to our Facebook page, facebook.com slash The Film Talk. We appreciate the support, of course. Any last words, Gareth, before we get out of here and make sure the listeners have time to go see this film?
Gareth (47:19.655)
Yeah, I encourage you to go see it and think particularly about what it's asking of us, which is how to care for people. And let's help expand the notion that the golden rule should apply to all human beings and not just Tony Goldwyn and his friends.
I've been Gareth Higgins.