Remembering Rob Reiner leads Jett and Gareth back to a quality that ran through his work almost regardless of genre: kindness. From there, Train Dreams and Sorry, Baby open two different windows onto grief, vulnerability, survival, and the strange ability movies have to hold pain without reducing human beings to it.
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There's a mysterious visitor here. know, Gareth, sometimes there's someone who brings you joy through their work, and you find out maybe they're not a great person, right? Gotta separate the art from the artist, do you? But sometimes there seems to be someone who generates joy and who is also a mensch, a decent person, it seems, someone like Rob Reiner.
Gareth (05:01.653)
You
Jett Loe (05:16.872)
And as we are about to record this episode, Dear Listeners, Gareth and I found out about Mr. Reiner's passing and his wife's passing. And can we talk about him a little bit in today's show before we get to the movies we're going to critique?
Gareth (05:33.278)
Yeah, I know. course we should. It's strange when a public figure dies and you don't know them personally. All you know is their work. So in a sense, all you can talk about is their work and your experience of them in their public life. And Rob Reiner was... Let's put it... What's the opposite of inscrutable? Is it scrutable? I imagine it's scrutable. Rob Reiner appeared to be...
more available than a lot of directors always came across as a kind person, open hearted person. I think part of why we feel this sort of parasocial relationship with him is because of course in maybe his best film, he is a character in that film, Marty DeBergey, and this is Spinal Tap. So we saw him on screen and people of our generation.
It's a cliche, but it's true. grew up with his films. This incredible run of seven out of nine of the first of the...
Jett Loe (06:38.702)
Could we stop for a second? So again, I just wanted to have a couple thoughts and then we get into theme tune and then we do the appreciation. You see what I'm saying? So that's why I put in the rundown. So I just say a couple quick things.
Gareth (06:44.569)
sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah, Do you think, I mean, so in all seriousness, do you think like the theme tune...
Jett Loe (06:52.014)
That's right.
Jett Loe (06:55.36)
It just signifies that it's a show for new listeners, that we have something, that it's an actual produced show. It's just a signifier of something. It's too...
Gareth (06:59.35)
Yeah, but it starts heavy and to go into the theme tune with our normal little thing doesn't feel right to me.
Jett Loe (07:11.81)
Well, I ended my thing by saying, can we talk about him a little bit before we discuss today's films? Maybe you could say one or two sentences, and then I'll come up with something else maybe other than the theme, too.
Gareth (07:17.641)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (07:23.549)
Okay. Yes, of course, we can talk about them. And we must, you know, when public figures die, especially when they die as horribly as Robin, Michelle, Reiner have died, you could be left with the feeling, is it even in good taste to talk about?
Jett Loe (07:25.116)
Whenever you're
Gareth (07:47.689)
the work, but actually of course it is. The work is how we knew him and I look forward to having a conversation with you about why he meant something to us.
Jett Loe (07:57.763)
You know what's not in good taste? Interrupting somebody when they're trying to watch the equalizer.
Then we'll cut into the famous Wolf of Wall Street, remember? When he does the, you don't remember that? It's been all over the thread. So then we have a funny little bit. Okay, and then we come out and now you can do your bit, my friend.
Gareth (08:08.883)
Alright. Okay, okay.
Gareth (08:18.045)
it. Well, welcome dear listener to the Film Talk. I'm Gareth Higgins.
Is this where you say I'm Jettlo?
Jett Loe (08:28.888)
Sorry, I thought you froze there. Whenever you're ready, just try that again.
Gareth (08:31.253)
Okay, I'll do it do it again. Okay.
Welcome to the Film Talk, dear listener, I'm Gareth Higgins.
Jett Loe (08:41.164)
and I'm Jet Low, and we want to talk just for a couple minutes here about a guy, I gotta say he's beloved, giant of American comedy, Rob Reiner.
Gareth (08:57.981)
known to people in the US as a sitcom actor in the 70s. I did not grow up in the US so I never actually saw, what was it called, All in the Family? Is that what it was called?
Jett Loe (09:12.14)
Yeah, was a remake of a British show,
Gareth (09:13.949)
Yeah, yeah. But I knew him from this incredible run. Seven of his first nine films as a director between 1984 and 1995. This is Spinal Tap, Stand By Me, The Princess Bride, When Harry Met Sally, Misery, A Few Good Men and The American President. Like, there's a lot of careers if that's all you had done.
It would be more than adequate to achieve a place in the pantheon. What do these films have in common? They are humane, even the one that's closer to being a horror film.
He made two Stephen King adaptations, Stand By Me and Misery, and Misery edges up against the horror that Stephen King is mostly known for. But of course, maybe about a third of Stephen King's books are not that kind of out and out horror. Misery definitely has horrible things that happen in it. But one of the things you may, I know if you remember about Misery, aside from the two extraordinary central performances, James Cann and Kathy Bates in particular,
You've got Richard Farnsworth. Do remember Richard Farnsworth in misery plays the local sheriff and
Jett Loe (10:33.422)
Well, I remember Richard Farnsworth in The Straight Story, and maybe that's enough.
Gareth (10:36.646)
Yes. Will you see it? mean, he's basically, he's kind of his character in Misery is sort of like what you would imagine Alvin. Here's Richard Farnsworth, just kindness and humanity shining all the way through. You really had the sense that this guy was making, that he was stepping into the shoes of someone like a Frank Capra.
Jett Loe (10:43.394)
He's playing Richard Farnsworth.
Gareth (11:01.876)
or a Leo McCary or even an Ernst Lubeitch is kind of saying something about a vision of ordinary life in the United States, people being good to each other. And maybe the last thing I'll say, because what else can you say other than watch the guys films, be kind to each other and...
you know, say a prayer for that family who've obviously struggled mightily with terrible things for a very long time. This is Spinal Tap. The thing I love about that and the thing I return to it is this is about a community of people who are barely competent, right? They're barely competent. They're all better guitar players. Yes.
Jett Loe (11:46.382)
I think that was one of their band names, right? They were the Thamesmen, Barely Competent, Spinal Tap.
Gareth (11:55.103)
They're barely competent and the Marty DeBurgie character is barely competent as a documentary maker. And they are just having fun creating things together. while, you know, of course, this is a time for taking seriously what has happened, I think also there's a sense that the guy enjoyed his time on set and he convened that sense of community and family that.
maybe many of us want for ourselves. Those are my thoughts. It's a cliche to say may he rest in peace. It's a terrible thing and like may his legacy be more kindness in the world.
Jett Loe (12:41.142)
I think that would be an astonishing legacy and I think that that legacy is already existent because when I think about his films and touching on what you said, the idea of kindness and empathy no matter the subject matter and he did such a diverse array of these again very, very popular and acclaimed and entertaining, I would say classical motion pictures but what comes through is the idea.
the embodiment of kindness. You know, for me, I'm Generation X, right? I'm a couple years older than you are. But I was of the generation that came up with his movies. His movies defined popular cinema making. I remember, dear listeners, where I was when I saw his films growing up. I remember him as a TV character. He embodied his character, even though it was called Meathead. He's called Meathead. His character...
Gareth (13:29.896)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (13:33.391)
personified decency and tolerance in fighting back against division and opportunism. And it turned out, it seemed that this was actually who he was. And we're not even going to talk about the fact that his dad was a comedy giant in the 20th century. But even as a kid, I remember very distinctly.
Gareth (13:49.82)
Eheh, eheh.
Jett Loe (13:57.461)
realizing at the time as each one of his films came out, and they came out on a yearly basis, dear listeners, that this guy was on an incredible populist run. Kind of like someone like Frank Capra or Preston Sturges with his comedies, but imagine he did all different genres. So this is Spinal Tap. It was seismic for what you could do with filmed comedy, what you could do with improv. Then the next year, he did The Sure Thing with John Cusack. And for me as a white guy, Gen X teenager, it was like The Graduate.
Gareth (14:07.55)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (14:11.252)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (14:26.998)
for my generation. And then he did Stand By Me, which was like a film of my generation about these young men coming together and having an adventure that meant something, that ushered them into adulthood. And then he did The Princess Bride, a film that is overflowing with kindness. You feel it in every frame, the way the camera photographs Andre the Giant. Then a huge hit with Harry Mazzali, Misery, and then...
Gareth (14:32.722)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (14:54.542)
a few good men and at the time even it was very clear to me as a kid that this man was on an incredible run of fantastic popular art. And then as an adult you realize that these movies are like a tip of an iceberg, right? So you see the iceberg but beneath it was this person who was massively influential as a comedy producer, director.
Gareth (15:17.416)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (15:18.014)
and writer. And again, we played a clip from Wolf of Wall Street which shows he's just in a couple scenes, maybe three scenes, short scenes in Wolf of Wall Street and he's hysterical. And it shouldn't work at all because how would you wouldn't cast Rob Reiner as the dad of Leonardo DiCaprio? It makes no sense. It made no sense in the theater when we saw it, but he is hysterical. It's decades of comedy bones.
Gareth (15:30.196)
No, Yes.
Jett Loe (15:44.537)
But I get back to the kindness. One of the reasons that I was so shocked just finding out about his passing is because he seemed to be a decent human being and he will be missed. Rob Reiner and his wife rest in peace. And I think this segues into the first film I want to talk about with you, Gareth, because it's analogous to his work. Sometimes movies, dear listener, can feel contrived. They can feel artificial.
Gareth (15:57.982)
Yeah.
Jett Loe (16:14.732)
And sometimes I can come down to a bad accent, right? Someone's doing a bad American accent or British accent. Now there's a film out right now, the star's an Australian actor and he's doing an American accent and he nails it and the film is a moving, thoughtful, beautiful meditation on the nature of the search for meaning in life. And I'm talking of course to listeners about Avatar colon fire and ash with Sam Worthington.
Gareth (16:38.741)
Hehehehehe
Jett Loe (16:42.71)
No, no, I'm talking about train dreams. Take it away, Gareth. What's the story with train dreams?
Gareth (16:47.24)
Well, Train Dreams is directed by Clint Bentley based on the novella by Dennis Johnson and that Australian actor of whom you speak is of course Joel Edgerton. And this is a film about 80 years of a life of a character called Robert Grenier in Idaho who is a, what do call him? A logger? Is he a logger? Is that the?
Jett Loe (17:16.354)
logger.
Gareth (17:17.34)
job title and he's a human being and in fact the film could be called The Human Being and it's competing if these things do for my film of the year and I believe we have a clip.
Jett Loe (17:39.439)
We do, this is just a trailer, folks. It'll give you a little bit of the flavor. And no, you're not listening to a teaser trailer for the assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford. We can talk about that. But it'll just give you a little flavor. We hear a little bit about our protagonist and his life, and it's narrated by the great and always a welcome presence on screen, even if just hear him, Will Patton. Let's listen in.
Jett Loe (18:11.022)
whenever you're ready.
Gareth (18:11.311)
and that is train dreams. know, like we are bombarded by so much content these days. You were the first person I ever heard use the phrase infinite amount of content. that kind of melds with something that I interviewed Paul Schrader once and asked him what movies he liked to go and see and whether, you know, did he think there were good movies these days? And he basically said,
There's more of everything. And that means there's more good things. There's also more bad things. And the upside of that?
Great, more good things. The upside of availability, accessibility of that and streaming services, fantastic. More people than ever can see these things. The downside is that a film like Train Dreams doesn't get to be in every movie theater in the country for about nine months, working its way around...
Jett Loe (19:05.1)
Yeah, it should be. It should be playing for months. Everywhere. What?
Gareth (19:11.667)
the hearts and souls of the beleaguered people. The movie Integrate Silence, documentary about Cistercian monks, played apparently for months in a Manhattan art house. And part of the reason it played there for months was because the word got out in 2006, the word got out that there was a place in Manhattan where you could go for three hours and just be quiet. That was Integrate Silence.
If I tell you, I saw Train Dreams maybe three, four weeks ago, saw it on a TV, wasn't playing in any movie theaters near me. It was shot on 35 millimeter film, by the way. there have been some, there was it not? No, there've been 35 millimeter, maybe we need to cut this out. There was a 35 millimeter screening at the Arrow.
Jett Loe (20:02.242)
Yes, we have the technology to go from, no wasn't, it was shot on an Ari, it was shot on an open gate Ari Alexia, we'll cut it out. I will.
Gareth (20:04.659)
they converted it wasn't shot in film. right. All right. let's so so cut cut from where I said it was shot. So so in a sense like I'm watching this and I know I'm watching something extraordinary and I'm feeling it. I'm feeling it. I'm feeling spoken to. I'm feeling.
Jett Loe (20:23.276)
Yes. Yes.
Gareth (20:28.527)
empathy and feeling understood. There is a horrifying thing that happens very early in the film, very early in Robert's life, which haunts him for the rest of his life. And the way they portray this showing up in his life.
It's such a simple idea, such a simple idea. The person that he sees this terrible thing happening to, I guess you could call it the ghost or a projection of this person periodically appears and shows himself to Robert because you can't let go of such things. You can transform them.
You can't transcend them. You can transform them into fuel for, we've already talked about regarding Rob Reiner, for living a better life, being a kinder person. You know, if you go to see The Princess Bride and you come out of it as grumpy as you were before you went in or as bitter as you were before you went in, then something's missing. If you go to see Train Dreams and you don't reflect on the ineffable wonder and confusion of life,
then something's missing as well. And the thing that could be missing is because of this bombardment of an infinite amount of content, such a film, such a wonder as this film will hardly ever be seen at...
to its greatest effect. It'll hardly ever be seen that way. Some people will be lucky to see it in a theater and I hope it won't just disappear algorithmically. You could click past it to any other film that the algorithm has decided is like it. But at some level, there's very, very few films that are like this. People have invoked Terence Malick, as you've already mentioned, Andrew Dominic's film, The Assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford. Those names, Malick in particular,
Gareth (22:14.568)
invoked by comparison almost, I don't know, to knock a movie. I don't mind if the film reminds me of Terence Malick. That's probably a good thing. Terence Malick is a great filmmaker, but this film is its own thing. Last thing I'll say, by way of kind of my first thoughts about the film, I'd love to hear what you have to say, Chet, is Godfrey Reggio's film.
Quainis Gatsey, he famously says, like, you could watch Quainis Gatsey and see it as a hymn to technology or as a denunciation of over-technologizing our society. You could watch Train Dreams a little bit like one of the astronauts who orbited the Earth came back and interviewed other astronauts that had done the same.
and said that those who were religious believers before they went into space, their experience in space simply confirmed their religious beliefs. But those who were not religious believers before they went into space, didn't change their mind. They may have had a deeper sense of all, but they didn't have religious conversion experiences. I'm really interested in what you thought about this film, Jett, because for me, this film reaffirmed my sense of there being something beyond and something better.
and a kind of a metaphysical cradle.
that we get to opt into. doesn't mean there's no, of course it doesn't mean there's no suffering. Of course it doesn't mean that. It just means that there's a context for our lives that's bigger than the mind can fully conceive. I really love this film. I'm eager to watch it again. I didn't mention Jeremiah Johnson. It's like Jeremiah Johnson for kind of postmodern existentialist poets. It has a magnificent central performance. Also Felicity Jones,
Jett Loe (24:04.141)
Yes.
Gareth (24:12.224)
Kerry Condon, William H. Macy, who has let his beard turn grey or white and he looks wonderful. And Clifton Collins Jr. who's in one scene and you see him at the very start of the film and you think, great, he's going to be throughout the film. But no, there's a lot of little cameos from really great actors and it's just right. Just
Jett Loe (24:33.499)
John Deal. was great to see John Deal.
Gareth (24:35.442)
Yes, yeah, of course. Just great for them to come in and out. And the other film we're going to talk about today has something similar too. But yeah, I love this movie. If you're out there and you own a movie theater, probably you want a 400 seater movie theater, want the biggest screen possible. It doesn't have to be a cinema, but like big enough and you want to fly us to go and see Train Dreams on that screen, we'll consider that invitation warmly. Thank you.
Jett Loe (25:04.312)
Preferably fly us in a biplane so we can look down in a world, see the world as the birds do. getting back to your, sure, so you're the astronaut that already has religion and I'm the astronaut that does not have religion. And here's why I'll say that, Gareth and dear listeners. I'll kind of break it down into two things. This is a beautiful, magnificent film that I can't stop thinking about it and I've thought about it.
Gareth (25:07.386)
in a train yes in a bike lane that's right that's right that's and connect connect to our lives for the first time
Gareth (25:20.434)
Hehehehehe
Jett Loe (25:34.475)
every few hours since I've seen it and I wish I'd seen it theater. I kind of want to break it down into two parts here, if this makes sense. And please, Gareth, as always, feel free to interrupt at any time with your patented insight. I kind of want to break it down into the themes and then how was, how patented insight. That's my new catchphrase for you. Ooh, very good. You know, Will Patton, always, you know, and I know you're not a fan of No Way Out, specifically his character.
Gareth (25:42.042)
Mm-hmm.
Patented!
Will patented.
Thank you. Yeah.
Gareth (26:03.666)
Horrendously homophobic film. Horrendously homophobic film.
Jett Loe (26:03.86)
And I understand why.
Yes, can we put that aside? Maybe we cannot. But he is so good. He burned up the screen. Come on now, acting with Kevin Costner, I mean holding his own with Gene Hackman.
Gareth (26:09.595)
haha
Gareth (26:15.782)
These grades! I prefer the Minari Will Patton to the No Way Out Will Patton.
Jett Loe (26:23.31)
I like Will Patton in The Postman. He has the great line, like he's the great villain of the film. And he says to Kevin Costner, you know what I was in the previous life, that's before the Mad Max dystopia. He said, you know, a copier salesman. But I'm not an actor. The way he says a copier salesman, sorry, spoilers for The Postman folks. The way he says a copier salesman is just wonderful. Listen, I want to break down into some of the themes. I'm going to be very quick here. Some of the themes, I love No Way Out.
Gareth (26:48.114)
Yes.
Jett Loe (26:52.332)
He was in love with Gene Hackman. Sure, it is the gay, okay, the gay stereotype. God, okay, the themes of Drain Dreams.
Gareth (26:54.993)
Yeah.
Gareth (26:59.302)
Yeah, yeah. It's not a good movie.
Jett Loe (27:04.334)
Well, I love the foreshadowing. Kevin Costner orders a shot of Stoli, right, at the beginning. Okay, I don't want to spoil it, no way out for anybody, go see it. Trained Dreams, the themes, the themes of Trained Dreams, and then also how it was shot, or the filmmaking in terms of the filmmaking grammar. Dear listener, imagine the first, you know the first 10 minutes of Up, or Tear Jerker, you cry, imagine that spread out for two hours. I sobbed like a baby.
Gareth (27:09.36)
Yes. Yes. Yes. No. Don't go see it.
Gareth (27:21.158)
Yes.
Gareth (27:27.046)
movies
Gareth (27:32.084)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.
Jett Loe (27:33.135)
during this, listen, I had tears running down my eye, I looked at my eye, I saw it with my wife, I turned over to her, she's crying, sobbing. Because it's one of those films that is genuine art in the sense that it explores, explicates the nature of the human condition. And it does it beautifully. All of us, so I'm not that smart, right?
Gareth (27:38.694)
Hmm. Hmm.
Jett Loe (28:01.912)
but all of us in some way, in some way, somehow try to grasp.
for meaning, for understanding of what is going on around us. the protagonist of this film, beautifully performed by, portrayed by Joel Edgerton, is searching for meaning. He even encounters, he goes to a, like kind of a vaudeville show. And in the wake of, say in the wake of his whole life, it happened much earlier in the wake of Unspeakable Tragedy, years later he goes to a vaudeville show that promises, you know, all the answers are here. And then as the narrator tells us, it's just a boy in wolf makeup.
Gareth (28:24.368)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (28:34.778)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jett Loe (28:38.638)
He's looking for meaning and can't find it. You have a holy man played by William H. Macy in a role that could have been played by someone like the always recognizable John Carroll Lynch, for instance. You have William H. Macy plays a holy man and then, for sure, that's foreshadowing the next picture to listeners. Again, spoilers for this film. If you haven't seen Train Dreams, please skip ahead or stop this and watch Train Dreams.
Gareth (28:55.036)
Foreshadowing, speaking of foreshadowing.
Jett Loe (29:05.976)
William H. Macy is a wise man or a holy man and he dies. There's no reason. There's no meaning there. He tried to find meaning. There's nothing there. And our protagonist can't find meaning, but in the end, maybe he finds some sort of connectedness. And maybe that's enough. It's a beautiful film. And those themes resonated out of the screen for me and have entered my body and have persisted there.
eminent, I can feel it in my body, in my bones, in my flesh, in my mind, whoever it is that I am, I can feel it since I've seen the film. I can't think of a higher praise. Art, great art, changes the way you see the world. And this film has changed the way I feel the world. And I can't think of higher praise than that. And it does that in a couple different ways. Can I say, yes, go ahead. But in terms of the way it's shot, it's very, very smart, but please, go ahead.
Gareth (29:51.698)
I'm like a... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was, I'm almost hesitant to say anything more given how lovely what you've just said is, but I want to remind myself and maybe remind you of just some things in this film that you saw a couple of days ago, I saw it about three weeks ago, that stay with me. Boots, boots that have, boots that have been nailed to a tree as like a grave marker.
Jett Loe (30:20.609)
Okay.
Gareth (30:28.165)
but have over time blended into the side of the tree. The scene when someone who knew William H. Macy's character says, I haven't seen him in a while. Have you seen him around? Robert knows that he's dead, but he realizes the kind thing to do is don't tell him. Don't tell him that he's dead. And your question about the fact that William H. Macy's character dies,
such a sudden, you know, piece of tree falls on him. Looking for meaning in that. I don't know that like you need to find meaning in such things that are explicable based on the fact that sometimes shocking things happen, you know, like when a branch falls off a tree and kills somebody. mean, literally a friend of mine was killed by a falling tree a couple of years ago.
that was blown over on top of her and you know hopefully she died instantly. There's no way of knowing. I don't think I can find meaning in the fact that that happened or the fact that such things take place. For me the issue is
Jett Loe (31:40.791)
I'm not s-
But there is a search, but it inspires or it drives, rather than inspires, it drives a search for meaning. Not that you can't can't find it, but I think there's a natural reaction for us humans to want to find meaning. Hence we have religion, right?
Gareth (31:57.574)
Yeah, sure. maybe meaning is a synonym for something else here. To me, explanations can only take you so far. There's a cosmic reality that we can't understand. To me, it's much more about the film induces a desire to be a better person.
Jett Loe (32:22.382)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (32:22.607)
The film induces a desire to be, like we said about Rob Reiner, a kinder person, but also someone who drinks deeply at the well. Because you could walk out of your house and a tree could fall on you. Tomorrow.
Or you could live for 50, 60 more years, spending all your time worried that a tree is going to fall on you and then not living your life. This is one of those films that, in a sense by the, I think that the phrase in some indigenous cultures would be the giveaway of this character, Robert Grenier, who's obviously not, he's not based on a single individual figure, but there are lots of people like him. His giveaway.
induces a desire in me to take the things that are worthy of taking seriously more seriously and the things that are worthy of taking less seriously less seriously and if it's a cliche to say the film made me want to be a better person so be it it's a cliche that's true it's a cliche that's true
Jett Loe (33:18.57)
That's what happens when you get, I think that's getting old. I think that's called getting older. Right? think that's what, and I'm not saying that flippantly. Well, I'm not saying that flippantly because one of the geniuses of the film, and I'm kinda segueing into how it was shot or how it was structured, is that you have, it's of a piece, you feel that this is this whole person's life or that we're seeing this person's life and the way they do that, cinematically, is to tell you right at the beginning.
Gareth (33:23.153)
What? Say more. Yeah.
Jett Loe (33:46.585)
that he lives to 80 years old. So we know we're going to get, and that it flashes forward to a much more modern time, decades in the future, and then flashes back. So that we see fragments of the person's life, but we know we're seeing it in totality, almost as if we're non-linear creatures, like the wormhole aliens in the wonderful Star Trek.
Gareth (33:48.143)
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Hmm
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Gareth (34:05.126)
Mm-hmm.
Hehehehehe
Jett Loe (34:09.058)
TV show, Deep Space Nine, I'm serious, you perceive time in a nonlinear fashion. So we are those creatures, we're able to dip into this person's life and see it in some form of totality. And that also gives it the flavor of a dream. It's called Trained Dreams. And that is expressed, I say, cinematically, makes it powerful. When you think about a dream, I don't know, do we cross cut in dreams? Do we cut, do we edit? Do we go to close-ups and wide shots? I don't think so. Think about how this film was shot with just
Gareth (34:13.041)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Gareth (34:33.295)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Jett Loe (34:38.398)
Simple, medium and wide shots and then you're telling a whole story within the shot without cutting. So there's something that happens in this film where a man gets shot and it's a shocking event and the film never cuts. It feels as if it's remembered. We're watching this person's remembrances at the end of his life and we're watching this person's dream life and his remembrances and his imagination. There is a...
Gareth (34:51.739)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (34:56.112)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (35:04.974)
A horrible moment in which he imagines how loved ones could die. He can never know, but he's imagining it and becomes real to us. And it is full of cinematic power because the film has taken us into the dream life and the remembered life of someone. And one of the ways it does that is also by just how it was shot. It shot probably 99%, they say, with natural light.
Gareth (35:10.961)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Gareth (35:20.773)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (35:30.767)
kind of Barry Lyndon-ing it. Barry Lyndon, Kubrick film famous, people used to say all the time, oh, never use lights, it's all natural light. That's not actually true, they did use lights. In fact, you can even watch a version of Barry Lyndon where you can actually see a light stand. But they shot it with natural light. Maybe they used what's called bounce or negative fill. That's where you can take like a piece of white styrofoam, can buy it at a hobby store, you can bounce light off of it, or you can do it a piece of black styrofoam, painted styrofoam, it'll kind of remove light to create modeling and shadows, but it's shot in natural light.
And to me, the look of the film is so beautiful because it had such a less encumbered way of shooting. know, I all these lights. They're able to almost 360, I think one of the, maybe the cinematographer, the director talked about it, produced the film so the actors could move freely in the space without having to worry about cables and lights and everything else because it was done naturally. And I think one of the achievements, Gareth, of this film is that we're now getting to the stage where people are beginning to understand how to use digital.
technology and filmmaking. Because I remember watching a Jason Statham film in the early days when they transferred from film to digital. And I went, oh no, because it looked so terrible. I immediately came to mind some documentary about what happened when you went from silent film to sound. Because in silent film, you could have small cameras. They could be swinging on ropes. You could toss them around, do whatever you want. And then the sound came in. This is dramatized in the movie, Singing in the Rain.
Gareth (36:29.678)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Gareth (36:39.952)
Hmm.
Gareth (36:46.522)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (36:56.622)
with that ham, that wonderful ham, Gene Kelly. every episode of the film, I feel like I got to dig Gene Kelly for some reason, I don't know why. But the thing is that it set back Phil...
Gareth (37:07.17)
Every episode of The Film Talk makes me want to be a kinder person.
Jett Loe (37:10.474)
Yes, absolutely. I'm sorry, Gene. You're great. He is a wonderful ham. I like a good ham sandwich, you know what I'm talking about? That's why singing the rain works, by the way, is because he's playing a ham. So it all works. But anyway, the point is that when you had sound coming with the biggie, had to blimp, had to put sound proofing on the camera, you couldn't move it as much. So the filmmaking techniques, the filmmaking grammar went back years, cinema years. And that's how it feels to me when you went from film
Gareth (37:13.646)
You called him a wonderful ham. You called him a wonderful ham. That's progress.
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (37:35.62)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (37:39.085)
to digital because we had the height of film, we talked about this before, even cheesy kind of mid brow films like Practical Magic in the 90s or Field of Dreams. They look incredible because the filmmaking art had gotten so high with cellul- Well, we'll talk about Field of Dreams on another show. Because the art of celluloid had gotten so great and then all that got thrown out the window or 90 % of it when you move to digital and watching this Jason Sathin film it looks terrible. Think about a lot of Netflix.
Gareth (37:46.937)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (37:50.586)
How do you know a field of dreams is cheesy and meadowbri?
Gareth (38:01.968)
Mm.
Jett Loe (38:08.32)
Netflix shows people say they all look the same they all look kind of this crappy digital look but with Train Dreams they're shooting on a chip again an area chip that has great dynamic range meaning you can have you can have a great spectrum between the lights and the darks and have great lenses on it and it felt to me like we're finally understanding now how to shoot digitally to make beautiful motion pictures so that beauty is part of the movie because it's about the beauty of existence
Gareth (38:36.41)
Yeah.
Jett Loe (38:36.652)
the beauty of existence, dear listeners, and it succeeds magnificently in showing that and demonstrating how beautiful it is, no matter the tragedy, no matter the heartbreak, how beautiful it is to be alive. Train Dreams, go see it.
Gareth (38:51.78)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Gareth (38:58.796)
Okay, so timing wise, I'm a bit tight for doing Sorry Baby, but we're kind of on a roll. Do feel like we can do a meaningful eight minutes on it? Right, let's do it.
Jett Loe (39:14.638)
Sure, let's get right, and I'll say one other thing. Go see it. And there's something else you should see. We're running out of time to listen to this. We've to heart out. Let's get right into it. Go see Sorry Baby.
Gareth (39:25.976)
So Sorry Baby is in a strange way, it's a perfect companion piece to train dreams, partly in the sense that it's one of those films that carries a story of one individual who's...
really at the heart of things and who suffers terrible things, although it certainly doesn't take place over the course of 80 years of their life. It's more like about three years in the life of Agnes, who's played by Eva Victor, who also wrote and directed the movie. And for all I know, they built the house. That's one of the major sets in the film. Agnes is a college professor in a New England college and is living in the aftermath of something
awful that has happened to them and I believe we have a clip.
Jett Loe (40:18.168)
do have a clip and obviously the distribution company has been marketing this as a comedy. So there's some laughs in this clip of some interactions between a next door neighbor and Agnes. So it's kind of quirky, kind of funny, but also folks, this is a deeply sad film. Let's listen in.
Gareth (40:22.81)
No.
Gareth (40:42.55)
And that was sorry, baby. Now, interesting, Jed, that you refer to as deeply sad because I don't experience it as tragic. And actually the comedy, despite the fact that the trailer overplays just how much of a comedy this film is, one of the unusual things about it and one of the most remarkable things about it is its tone, because it is funny in places and it is horrifying.
in other places. But the horror is the horror of the ordinary. The worst thing that happens in the film takes place in a nice enough house in a nice enough neighborhood. Eva Victor is, I think, a really emotionally intelligent director. way they portray this awful thing.
that has happened is unusual to say the least. You don't actually need it to be in your face to imagine the awfulness of what is going on. And the truth is in suffering and in the healing from suffering, there is a kind of gallows humor at times. And I think in any whole life.
any given day is going to have ups and downs and sometimes in a life some of those ups are going to be really up and some of those downs are going to be really terribly down. So the tone of this film, it's a high wire act because there's moments where you can feel like, you know, should I be laughing at that? I'm not sure that all the performances work. There's one scene in particular where the writing is good, but the delivery of the line just kind of doesn't work. And the scene,
That's the scene where they're meeting with the HR people in the school. Also the scene where the jury selection takes place. There are elements of that scene that are so profoundly honest. And the people in my life who have survived similar things to what Agnes is surviving in this film have talked to me about the experience of there's the thing happening itself and then there's the having to talk about the thing.
Gareth (43:01.872)
afterwards and maybe being in a situation where you need to talk about it in front of strangers. I don't want to mislead you, dear listener. There have been plenty of films that have been made about sexual assault and the aftermath of sexual assault. This is very different from most that I've seen. It's humane. It has my favourite scene of the year so far and we're recording this on the 15th of December. So there's not long not long ago where
Jett Loe (43:30.274)
Well, you haven't seen Avatar colon fire and ash.
Gareth (43:32.408)
I know, I know. I'm sure Avatar will have its gifts. My favourite scene of the year involving breathing exercises and a And as you referred to earlier, the always recognizable John Carroll Lynch. are you willing to confess to the listener what you said to me on the phone last night after seeing this film?
Jett Loe (43:52.599)
I love the scene Gareth is talking about and I talked to him about this actor. I said, this guy is the spitting image of John Carroll Lynch. And then Gareth said, it is John Carroll Lynch. And I'm like, I didn't know he had it in him because he's doing an accent. Okay, we talked about accents with Edgerton. And I've never seen John, I've seen, you know, he's probably the Zodiac killer, spoilers. You know, he's Marge's husband.
Gareth (44:00.707)
There's a good reason for that. There's a good reason.
Gareth (44:16.937)
He does an accent in Fargo. He does an accent in Fargo.
Jett Loe (44:19.182)
Fargo, he does an accent, but his accent was so convincing as a Northeasterner, New Englander, I, a Maine, he's got a Maine accent, is so good in the Maine accent, I thought, oh, that's a local guy they got, because it's inexpensive film, so you get local actors, you don't have to fly them out, right? You know what mean? That's why you do that. So that's why, that's what I thought. Can I tell you why I said it's sad? I felt it was a sad film, but every woman that I've spoken to,
Gareth (44:23.087)
Uh-huh. Maine, probably a Maine, he felt like a Maine fisherman to me. Yes.
Gareth (44:38.383)
You
Jett Loe (44:49.664)
about this movie, he said it's a sad film. Very, very sad. And there's a reason why I'm saying this to your listener. It's because, you know, I did one of my college classes was like an interactive art digital projection thing, Multimedia, whatever you want to call it. And I did one for one of my projects, I worked with a woman who's giving, who's about to give birth. So I recorded her giving birth and we did this whole 3D sonic thing of her giving birth. See, it was terrible. It wasn't any good. Afterwards, there was someone who publicly is recrutiquing the work.
Gareth (44:52.11)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (45:19.562)
a woman in my class and she was furiously angry. And she said, you should not do that. don't have the, she said, I don't have the right to make this work because I'm not a woman and I can't give birth. And I was very upset at that, I think I'm a human being. I remember thinking about Maya Angelou and what she said about Shakespeare and I have this idea of this shared, know, as a human, you are aware of the human experience. I felt I had the right to do the work even though it wasn't any good. But then watching Sorry Baby,
Gareth (45:26.734)
Hmm.
Jett Loe (45:49.795)
which seemed immediately to me so insightful and grounded in an experience of what it's like to be a woman in the United States, I thought, and I suggested to you, Gareth, should we even review this? We should have women review this because it's about the female experience in every aspect in the United States or someone who presents as female in the US. I don't know if I even have the right to talk about it. You talk about sexual assault.
We talk about how our country puts down women and degrades them and how sexual assault can quash dreams. I remember when I was at late teens, I was at a party, dear listener, and I looked around, there's a whole bunch of my friends, and I looked and every single woman there, there's more than five, every single woman there had told me privately that they had been raped.
Gareth (46:47.875)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (46:49.09)
That's the world that we live in. Those acts of violence can derail and stay with you the rest of your life. They ripple out into your psyche. And Sorry Baby is a incisive, insightful.
Gareth (47:06.991)
Hmm.
Jett Loe (47:10.402)
home about that. I don't know if I have the right to speak about it.
Gareth (47:15.885)
Well, this is an interesting paradox because I felt like, yeah, of course it would be really important to have conversations with women about Sorry Baby. And also, I mean, it's clear that the character of Agnes, and I believe Eva Victor in real life, does not identify with the gender binary. There's an extraordinary, very simple, genius moment.
where Agnes is having to indicate their gender on an intake form for jury selection and...
And I'm not gonna say what happens to your listeners, especially because if you're one of our listeners who yourself doesn't identify with gender binary, I imagine you might find this a moment of recognition. mean, one of the people closest to me in my life from the things they have said to me about their experience of their gender, I can imagine this being one of those moments where you feel seen. And so while talking with people about whom this story is about,
would of course be valuable. I also think it's really important for men to talk about these things too and to be confronted. I'm not into this whole idea that we're all perpetrators. same as like growing up in Northern Ireland, there was this piece about like we're all perpetrators, but we're not all victims. And sorry, bullshit. It's like, it's just like that. I understand why people say that. We're all in the midst of a web of experience.
And we're all in the midst of a continuum of moral choices. And all of us have suffered and all of us have caused suffering to other people. And of course, there are differences of scale. Of course, there are differences of intent. And I was deeply moved by this film, both in terms of asking myself, how do I show up in the lives of others?
Jett Loe (49:08.099)
Yes.
Gareth (49:15.431)
and also some hope for my own without wanting to co-opt it, my own stories of pain. You know, life's too short to hold back from this kind of stuff. As you know, Jed, I've experienced PTSD and I've experienced very severe depression. And lately I had about three weeks of very intense panic attacks, right?
And one of the best things that you can do for someone living with such things is if it is true of you as well, to say so. To shed some light on it and say you're not alone. And while my story is certainly not the story of Agnes, I do have people in my life. And as you've said, you have people in your life who need compassion. I actually hope my story can be more like the John Carroll Lynch.
character, I truly would like to be the kind of person who can bring calm and who can bring a sense of reassurance in the midst of a crisis that someone else is feeling. Most of us are on both sides of that equation. We need to be the person bringing the calm. We're also the person in need of the calm. One last thing.
Jett Loe (50:34.078)
You just want to own, you want to own a sandwich shop is what you're telling me here, right? Except you don't want to deal, you don't want to deal with those dumb guys, the dumb guys next door.
Gareth (50:36.812)
I do, would, listen, I would happily go and work for John Carroll Lynch's sandwich shop. Don't leave with the, what a wonderful scene. Dear listeners, seriously, the scene with John Carroll Lynch, it's my favorite scene of the year. I do want to say one last thing. We are pretty much out of time. And of course, if you want to say more, Jeff, please do. There's, it may not seem that subtle, but I, there's a moment in the movie where,
Jett Loe (50:47.907)
See the film.
Gareth (51:07.488)
Agnes is teaching a class at Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita. And one of the students, a male student, says, I find this book really disgusting. And Agnes says, well, there is a world in which I'm relieved to hear that. You should find it disgusting, right? And then they say something. I don't remember the exact quote, but it...
Move me intensely. Isn't it possible to write about terrible things in a beautiful way and not to redeem the fact of the terrible thing, to help us. You know, I'm cautioned by the conversation we had earlier about meaning to help us find some way through. And sorry, baby, is just that. It's a beautiful way of talking about a terrible thing.
And at the end of the day, the film is not just about the terrible thing. The film is about this person moving forward in their life, in their community, being realistic, and even seeing the part of their own healing that has to do with offering kindness to others.
Jett Loe (52:19.426)
I think that's well said and even though I do find this film mournful overall.
It is, I think, or could be a wonderful companion piece to something like The Princess Bride. So that you have innate kindness in one hand, and then you have the idea of how do you struggle with the nature of the terrible that afflicts us. I can almost imagine the John Carroll Lynch character. You know who could have played him? Rob Reiner.
Gareth (52:38.413)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Gareth (52:46.19)
Mm.
Gareth (52:51.95)
Mmm.
Gareth (52:57.038)
God bless him.
Jett Loe (52:58.658)
You can imagine Rob Reiner as that character offering a sandwich. You absolutely could. I just want to end on the fact that Eva Victor, who wrote, directed, starred in this thing, their performance is incredible at its naturalism. You believe it.
Gareth (53:01.344)
You really could actually.
Jett Loe (53:16.558)
100 % and I kind of feel like maybe you think maybe some of the other actors didn't quite work maybe Kelly McCormack you might think is over the top what have you I think that serves a purpose we don't have time to get right into it she sort of to me is like the Alan Cumming character in Eyes Wide Shut she's like a non-submersible unit you know she's absolutely she's an anchor that a filmic anchor you can pivot around and again the women I've spoken about this movie all find her incredibly realistic
Gareth (53:26.659)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (53:30.284)
Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
Jett Loe (53:41.71)
Several women referred to her as a pick-me-girl, that they know that kind of behavior that sort of like separates the men and the women. I do want to say how wonderful that this film has actors with names like ER Fightmaster, who plays, which is fantastic. And here's my favorite, The Terrible Man, the sexual abuser. His last name is spelled cancel me. mean, brilliant, folks.
Gareth (53:45.078)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Gareth (53:57.216)
You
Gareth (54:03.274)
know his name, his name. Cancel me.
Jett Loe (54:10.638)
Please see sorry baby. It's sad, it's mournful, but also there's joy and there is hope there. Thank you so much for listening to the show. I got a little emotional, I apologize. Normally I'm relatively stoic, but there's been a lot going on. I gotta apologize. I don't know, because by apologizing, aren't I emphasis? Yeah, well, I do.
Gareth (54:25.4)
Don't apologize for the honest expression of Don't apologize for the honest expression of emotion. Handle the truth. Handle the truth.
Jett Loe (54:38.24)
I do try my own way. Folks, you enjoyed the show, want our bonus archive episodes, of course, you can go to our Patreon page, patreon.com slash The Film Talk, or on Facebook too, of course, because I love supporting that platform, facebook.com slash The Film Talk. Thank you so much for listening. It's really important for me to talk with Gareth about these things. He makes me a better person. I love talking with you today, Gareth. I've been Jet Low.
Gareth (55:04.776)
Gareth Higgins, same to you and we'll keep talking.
Jett Loe (55:09.324)
next time.