Jett and Gareth disagree sharply about one performance in Superman. On the larger point they are united: this is a movie willing to treat empathy and kindness not as weakness, sentimentality, or branding, but as genuine forms of power in a world very good at rewarding cruelty. Sometimes decency really does need a cape.
-
my goodness, folks. I'm back here with Gareth Higgins. This is going to be very special bonus episode. I'm Jett Lowe. Gareth, you've been overseas, much like Superman when he abandons Earth from time to time.
Gareth (06:24.714)
Ahem.
Gareth (06:34.464)
Are you suggesting I've abandoned Earth?
Jett Loe (06:38.67)
I'm not saying you've abandoned the listeners. I'm just saying it's been a while since we had a chance to talk, because I know we're both very busy and you've been away. I don't know where you've been. I don't want to pry. But again, I'm thinking kind of a Brandi and Ruthian kind of Superman returns. To me, feels like talking with you this morning feels like Gareth returns. Except you're a better looking Branden Ruth.
Gareth (06:51.392)
Yes, that's what it is. mean, like, you know, you are always kind and Superman is always kind. And I'm sure Brandon, is it Ruth or Ruth? It's spelled like South.
Jett Loe (07:10.978)
You know, I don't know. And if I was a broadcast professional, I would have looked that up ahead of time, but I did not.
Gareth (07:12.358)
Okay. Okay. All right. Well, listen, as you said, I am, I am Gareth Higgins. You are Jet Lo. This is the Film Talk and we're doing a special bonus episode for our beloved, what do we call them? Subscriber listeners, listener subscribers, members, acolytes, acolytes.
Jett Loe (07:31.682)
The important takeaway is that they're acolytes. I wouldn't go that far. I'd say they're beloved. God bless them. We do it for them. I would I talk to you otherwise? I don't know.
Gareth (07:38.867)
Okay, very good. Beloved listener. Beloved listener. Yes, you would. About once every three years. Beloved listener, we're here to talk about the Superman oeuvre, I guess is the word, the cinematic Superman oeuvre. There were TV shows, of course, books.
Jett Loe (07:47.981)
Sure.
Jett Loe (07:59.853)
Yes.
Gareth (08:02.828)
There's an extraordinary novel called the Amazing Adventures of Cavalier and Clay by Michael Chaimon. There's a Superman universe, but we're here to talk about the theatrical movies. We did an episode a few weeks ago about the new James Gunn version. This episode is a bonus where we're going to talk about the four Christopher Reeve Superman films. We're going to talk about
Jett Loe (08:08.322)
Cavalier and clay. Yeah.
Gareth (08:32.276)
the Henry Cavill, Zack Snyder, Man of Steel films, little bit, little bit. And we will talk, I hope we will talk about the aforementioned Brandon and Ruth or Brandon Routh, because I watched, can we start with being transparent with each other here? know, deep.
Jett Loe (08:37.719)
Are we?
Okay, sure.
Jett Loe (08:46.019)
Yes.
Jett Loe (08:51.928)
Of course, always. I mean, I'm in the nude right now as we speak.
Gareth (08:57.13)
You know the way, you know, you know the way you're naked in your language and you're speaking from the heart. And, you know, way De Niro used to make one movie a year until he bought property in the Tribeca district. And then he started making like six movies a year. I read a biography of De Niro, I read a biography once that said there was a period in De Niro's career.
Jett Loe (09:02.573)
Yes.
Jett Loe (09:13.72)
Yes.
Each one a winner.
Gareth (09:24.116)
where his belief that he needed to earn every role had kind of dissipated somewhat. I believe that we are method podcasters and that we need to earn every episode. And so I'm confident that you did watch all four of the original Christopher Reeve films, all of the Man of Steel films and the Brandon Ruth, Brian Singer film. You watched all of them?
Jett Loe (09:44.077)
I did.
Yes.
Jett Loe (09:52.682)
Yes, watched all of them recently as well as Supergirl and within the last... within the period when we just did our Superman show a few weeks ago. So they're fresh in my mind.
Gareth (09:55.989)
How recent is recent? mean, in geological time, three million years ago is recent.
Gareth (10:04.535)
Okay. All right. Well, you're a better man than me. I watched one, two, half of three, all of four, most of Supergirl and most of Superman Returns. And I didn't actually get to the Man of Steel films because I have such thick memories of how bleak they are. So I'm looking forward to talking about them. And I'm glad to hear you watched them. You watched all the Man of Steel films? Batman versus Superman, Justice League.
Jett Loe (10:13.23)
That's a lot.
Jett Loe (10:32.642)
Here's the thing to remember, dear listeners and Gareth, I have an eidetic memory, a photographic memory for films that I watch. There's no question about that. And I did just watch Justice League and Batman v Superman colon Don of Justice a couple of days ago. I have no memory of them. I have no memory of them.
Gareth (10:33.876)
Yes.
Gareth (10:45.28)
Did watch the the square black and white Justice League? You've no memory from two days ago? Oh, because you're saying you don't like them.
Jett Loe (10:55.48)
How can I tell? I don't remember them. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold on. Are we gonna rank them? Are we gonna talk about them from like the worst to the best of our personal rankings? Are we doing kind of like a draft pick thing here? Or you just wanna go in order? You wanna go in order?
Gareth (10:56.916)
Okay, got it, got it. Well, look, we're here to talk. Yes.
Gareth (11:07.648)
Here's the thing. No, let's do them in chronological order and you know, not, as you know, we're not a show about worst. We're not a show about worst unless, you know, yes, absolutely. There are some that will be wanting to watch more often than others in the future. Let's put it that way.
Jett Loe (11:14.403)
Let's do that.
Jett Loe (11:20.395)
Everything has value.
Jett Loe (11:29.038)
your thing. Superman four colon quest for peace.
Gareth (11:32.734)
I'd like Superman we aim to always be kind.
Jett Loe (11:37.4)
So we're going in order. Number one, the 1978 masterwork by Richard Donner, Superman.
Gareth (11:46.421)
Well, you're kind of giving the game away by saying it's a masterwork and you're absolutely right. You know, it's well, let's say something. Let's say something to people who might have avoided it or only remember it from their childhood and don't think much of it.
Jett Loe (11:49.792)
Well, I mean it is.
Jett Loe (12:02.518)
Okay, well, here's the thing, dear listener. Here's what you've got to keep in mind. We're talking about movies, but movies are made by people. And the person that really matters here is a young guy. He was a young hotshot TV director. did Kojak, he did Canon, he did the Twilight Zone, Richard Donner. Director Richard Donner, who they tapped to do this picture, the Selkens, the producers, he knew how to make slick commercial entertainment.
with Hart, so you care about the kids in the Goonies, which he directed, right? You care about Riggs, Mel Gibson's loss in the lethal weapon. You care about William Shatner's mental state and his marriage when he sees a creature on the wing of the plane. And Donner was this old school, almost you would call the journeyman director, like you have to, he's working for a living, but he infuses his films with this slick commercialism and Hart, Ladyhawk, for instance.
Gareth (12:35.466)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (12:59.146)
He did a ton of TV and then he had a huge hit in theatrical films with the Omen and after that he was off to the races. did Superman, Inside Moves, Goonies, four lethal weapon films, what have you. His ability is to infuse mythic stories like that creature on a plane, like the Goonies, with, he would call it versimilitude, with a reality. So the films are grounded, but the ordinary folks are engaged in mythic adventures. And I think in some documentary even,
talks about how he put a sign up with a picture of Superman and the word Versa Militude, know, above a door in the production office. So when you see Clark Kent, Ma and Pa, Kent's farm, it is the mythic, it's like the Andrew Wyeth painting, right? It's like a mythic version of America, but yet you feel these are real people. Glenn Ford is a real person, the father, the adopted father, stepfather, whatever you want to call it, of Superman. So he makes it real. If he had dropped the ball, then you wouldn't have.
Gareth (13:30.73)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (13:56.972)
the Superman as we know it, much like who's the guy, the chef guy, the chef guy with the weight goes up and down, it goes up and down, Rudy, that guy who directed Iron Man. So, you he started off launched by figuring out what to do so successfully launched a whole world. So it has to come down to Don, he did a fantastic, fantastic job. It's a great film and an interesting enough, it opens up as a comic book, we had this whole framing device of curtains partying like the old days used to do in the movies.
Gareth (14:23.04)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (14:26.412)
and a kid reading a comic book, which is a brilliant conceit. It succeeds in every level. And we're not even talking about how great Christopher Reeve is or how anybody else is in the
Gareth (14:34.502)
I totally agree with you about that. Let me add another thing that I noticed more strongly. This time around, the film that Richard Donner kind of launched a...
Jett Loe (14:41.187)
Yes.
Gareth (14:53.802)
very commercially successful Hollywood feature film career with was the film that he made immediately prior to Superman and that is the Omen film about little boy Antichrist and the little boy Antichrist. yeah. Yeah. Well, it's so interesting to me is that Superman is the inverse parallel of that story.
Jett Loe (15:02.572)
Yes, I mentioned that.
Jett Loe (15:07.736)
That was the alternate title. You know, that's what they called it. They called that in Italy. It was called Little Boy Antichrist.
Gareth (15:24.028)
It's the, I don't know, don't know if it's, the light to the shadow of the omen. They're both about children who arrive from another place on this planet and have a destiny or a calling that will affect the entire world. And it just intrigued me, he's made the same film twice. And it's probably one of the reasons that he was, he was
Jett Loe (15:29.646)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (15:53.089)
hired to direct the film. The second thing is the. Sure, the bleakness and the genuine, let's I'm going to call it horror of the Omen shows up in Superman as well. The death of Krypton is a horror like the explosion of the planet and all these kind of like beams falling from the ceiling. Harry Andrews being pinned under underneath one, not to mention.
Jett Loe (15:55.33)
Also the amount of money the omen made.
Gareth (16:22.42)
Lois Lane being choked to death on dirt toward the end of the film. There is a bleakness in this that heightens the drama of the thing. we've already, we've talked before several times about the scene of Pa Kent's death, which is beautifully framed and so beautifully paced.
Jett Loe (16:28.398)
Yeah, there's real stakes. There's real stakes.
Jett Loe (16:44.834)
Yes.
Gareth (16:50.568)
and magnificently played. Like I think Glenn Ford's performance in that film, he's in two scenes and it's one of the great indelible, it's not even a supporting, it's a cameo performance. And the way that he responds whenever he's having his heart attack and he knows he's gonna die, this exhalation of, no. if you want to, know, dear listener, if you want to introduce, know we have high quality.
cinephile listeners, if you want to introduce people, as somebody said to me last night, you watch films in ways that I would never think of watching them. And when you talk to me about films, if you want to introduce people to what framing is, what editing is, what cinematography is, how music can be used and how the pacing of the use of language.
Jett Loe (17:29.614)
with your eyes closed.
Gareth (17:47.379)
and the tone of a performance can all work together perfectly. Show people Pa Kent's death scene in Superman, starting from when Clark gets back from messing around and his dad sent him, look, basically, you gotta be careful how you use your powers. Would that somebody had said that to Damien, if Gregory Peck had said that to Damien in the Omen, it would have been a very different film. Anyway, it's beautiful, the whole film is beautiful.
Even though Metropolis is in New York City in the 70s where its reputation was bleak, the way New York is filmed is beautiful. We haven't said much about Gene Hackman, who's in three Superman films, and it's a delicious comic performance the whole way through. And I'll say something about Gene Hackman when it comes to his performance in Superman 3, and I know that sounds paradoxical because he's not in Superman 3, but yes he is. When we get to that.
We love this film. There's nothing you can say against Superman. 1978, Richard Donner. Go see it.
Jett Loe (18:55.682)
Go see it. You know, imagine, dear listener, if you heard, there's a film I haven't seen and it stars, The Great Terrence Stamp is in it, Valli Perrine is in it, Glenn Ford is in it, Susanna York, and Margot Kidder, that's amazing. Wait, Gene Hackman's in it, and Marlon Brando, and wait, Ned Beatty. What an incredible cast. Everybody's chewing it just right.
Gareth (19:12.48)
Not to mention John Ratzenberg or
Jett Loe (19:18.262)
You know, I never watch Cheers, so I don't have any feeling. know he's, well, there's still time. I'm sure it's available on one of the 48 streaming services that I'm apparently paying for. And I know he's big in the Pixar movies as well, always, you know, obviously a lovable, warm presence. Okay, we're gonna move on. We do have to say, mean, famously Christopher Reeve, fantastic. And we've talked about this before. There's this scene, very famous. He's gonna reveal himself.
Gareth (19:21.472)
Well you missed out. You missed out. There it is. It's somewhere.
Definitely.
Jett Loe (19:47.704)
that he is Superman, he's Clark Kent, reveal himself to Margot Kidder, and there's no special effects, there's no CGI, there's no practical effects. He just changes his posture, his tone of his voice, and the way he holds his body language as he becomes Superman right in front of you. And that one simple scene in the audience, you just go, yeah, I get it now. That's why people don't realize he's Superman. yeah, got it. Brilliant stuff, all right.
We didn't even mention John Williams. Many people, they're a favorite John Williams, because score is superb. It's rousing. You want to root for the good guys and hope the bad guys fail, as lovable as Valerie Perrine and Ned Beatty are. All right, now we're moving on to 19, only two years later. Oddly enough, it's almost like they'd already had it shot. Only two years later, Superman 2, directed by a variety of people.
Gareth (20:41.76)
Yeah, well, this is the intriguing thing. know, film was, much of it had already been directed by Richard Donner before he was let go by the owners of the rights to the material. And then Richard Lester, American expat living in England, director of the Beatles comedy film, Help. And the Three Musketeers.
Jett Loe (21:05.752)
Hard day's night as well, which I would say is better, but that's just me.
Gareth (21:12.096)
films, the first time the the Sulkens had made two films at the same time. Smart idea, smart idea.
Jett Loe (21:19.338)
Ex... yeah, but also you need to tell your actors and your crew that you're actually doing two films. That it's not just one long shoot, because you're only getting paid once. Clever.
Gareth (21:23.792)
Yes, that there are being two movies. Yes, I know. Yeah, yeah.
So Superman 2 famously has tonal divergences because on the one hand it's directed by Donner with this kind of bleak operatic, you know, classical style. On the other hand, a smart comic sensibility. Then there was a recut that kind of tried to make it more like Richard Donner's film.
Jett Loe (21:35.736)
Show business.
Gareth (21:59.724)
They're both enjoyable and they're both bleak. And this is the first time we see Superman give up his powers in order to live a quote unquote human life. And it turns out that when you're a superhero who's destined to save the world, that's a bad idea.
Jett Loe (22:22.104)
You know, it's always helpful to have Superman in your pocket just in case something bad happens. And this comes out and talk about Bleak, this comes down to a scene that to me still resonates as a kid, it's shocking and it's shocking because of the powers, brilliant casting of who they got, right? So they got the guy, you know, one of the jurors from Troller, Angry Men, the great E.G. Marshall, who's also a fantastic radio theater performer in the United States and well-known character actor and he plays the president of the United States.
Gareth (22:51.561)
magnificent hair. Truly magnificent hair.
Jett Loe (22:51.822)
And that toupee is up there with Sean Connery's for why even? Why even? You're insulting us. But anyway, he's talking to an international audience and the camera's on him and he's bowing all of his presidential authority to the bad guys, Terrence Stamp, right? And he cries out in despair for Superman. like, for God's sake, Superman, where are you? Something along those lines. And it feels...
It's like, you know, God, why have you forsaken us? And he's desperate and see a man of such power reduced to begging. It is an incredible, it's the linchpin of the film. It impacts, you know, the character of Superman is watching in a diner, I guess somewhere in Alaska. But it just, it takes the entire film to another level. And it wouldn't work unless you get somebody like E.G. Marshall. And again, that kind of,
comes down to Donner's ability to make something that seems realistic while being mythic at the same time. So it's got that amazing moment. And it does have my favorite Gene Hackman moment. think you're probably gonna, you know what I'm gonna say here, Gareth, when Gene Hackman has been working with the bad guys, but he's a little worried because the bad guys keep wanting to kill him. And he's trying to help the bad guys kill Superman. And finally Superman shows up and Gene Hackman just mutters to himself.
Gareth (24:03.101)
yes, yes. Get him, get him Superman.
Jett Loe (24:13.704)
Superman thank God and then gets a look from Jaren Stamp and then Gene Appen goes go get him you know go get him guys and it's so he's so good it's so good it just elevates the bumps it up again
Gareth (24:15.093)
Thank God, yeah.
Gareth (24:24.257)
And that may be, Hackman in this film, in these films, similar to Christopher Reeve, you can't follow those performances in sequels without me spending the whole movie. This is part of my problem with Nicholas Holt in the new Superman film, which I know you think it's the greatest performance given by a human being.
Jett Loe (24:53.664)
All right, Dr. Strawman.
Gareth (24:53.889)
the, the, you, you, it's because there was, there was a gravity to Hackman's performance and there's a gravity to Kristen Marie's performance that really can't be emulated. I wonder, Jet, when you were watching Superman 2, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a fair amount of Superman 2 that takes place in the Oval Office. And I don't know, I was just struck by the fact.
Jett Loe (25:12.504)
Yes. Yes.
Gareth (25:21.803)
that there's a scene in the Oval Office where a supervillain who's known only for the terrible things that he's done to people coming into the Oval Office and demanding that the President kneel in front of him. And when the real President, E.G. Marshall, is revealed, he says, I'll kneel if it will save lives. And I had not previously thought about the Superman movies having a whole lot to say about the way leadership manifests in the real world.
Jett Loe (25:40.088)
Yes.
Gareth (25:51.201)
just gonna leave that there.
Jett Loe (25:53.774)
Well, I I haven't thought about this in any detail or possibly at all, but I think the theme running through all these Superman films, there is a theme of leadership because this character is godlike. So if you are a god, what are your responsibilities? Right? This is what goes back to the Spider-Man pictures that Sam Raimi did with great power comes great responsibility. So there are different leadership styles. I mean, we are living right now in the United States in which there's a particular...
I wouldn't call it a leadership style. There's definitely a style, you know what's interesting also, you think about cinema and you think about brand equity, you think about decades of brand building, all these films are raised in kids in which there was the might and majesty of the presidential office, all these things, all that's gone now. So it almost diminishes, I wonder if future generations.
Gareth (26:25.119)
No, it is a leadership style. It is a leadership style. It's a kind of leadership.
Jett Loe (26:47.414)
watching films like this, which people revere, you know, Mr. President, it won't work as well because all that is gone. Like, you know, like it used to be big deal to get a Kennedy Center honor, right? And now, it's being given a kiss or used to be a big deal to get a presidential medal, but one was given to Russia Limbaugh. So does it really matter? So all that's kind of being thrown away. Okay. That's a derail about our current state of affairs. It's a rail. It's not a derail. We're back on the tracks.
Gareth (26:52.895)
Or when the...
Gareth (27:10.367)
Well, no, no, no. Yeah, it's entirely germane. Because I think everybody is leading all the time. Everything that any human being communicates is inactive leadership to whoever is observing. Because we base what we think is appropriate in terms of the observation of other people's behavior and our desires arise as a result of what we think other people want until we become conscious about this.
I don't just think it's like the brand of the presidency that's been diminished watching Superman and Superman two, particularly in the last few weeks, everyone, wow, the brand of America is like these films seem, they actually seem kind of comically misjudged in some respect, looked at through the lens of today. again, quaint. And there's a kind of a more, I experienced some sort of sense of mourning and at the same time.
Jett Loe (27:56.462)
Wait.
Jett Loe (28:00.0)
point.
Gareth (28:08.289)
I think it's very good to question Shibboleth and Sacred Cows and the unearned power, those kinds of things. Shall we move on to Superman 3, having discussed the classical epic drama of Superman the First and the bleak entertainment of Superman the Second?
Jett Loe (28:25.803)
I'll s-
Jett Loe (28:29.71)
I will say one thing, you know, because there are two different versions. There's the Richard Donner version at sort of, and then the version that was released theatrically and they're very different pictures. you know, for film students out there, or people interested in filmmaking, it's interesting and instructive to watch two of them, to watch them both back to back. Because you can see, you you can start to figure out and kind of game out why were certain choices made. And I would, I would say that you could absolutely take parts of the Richard Donner version.
Gareth (28:44.299)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (28:54.026)
and put them back into the Richard Lester-esque version to make a better film. So you could combine them. There's a scene in which Lois Lane is probably was a screen test they did. Reveal figures out a Superman is by firing a gun at him. That's much stronger than what was in the theatrical version with the fire. So it's interesting, you could sort of, you know, building block and move them back and forth. And I'm sure there's folks out there who have, you know, taken the copies off Blu-ray or got them online and creating their own versions. And that's one of the things that makes films so fun, right? Is that they're a linear medium that you can play with like tiles and building blocks.
That's my last thing I wanna say about this, but boo, I cannot wait to talk to you about Superman 3, AKA what really happened with Eddie Murphy in Star Trek 4. Let's get right into it. Superman 3, and there's a reason for that, Superman 3.
Gareth (29:35.234)
So Superman 3, if the first is classical, the second is bleak, the third is British slapstick married to, I don't know, the leftovers of the classical bleakness of the first two directed by Richard Lester. And the two big differences in the cast here are that Gina Hackman, for some reason, can't imagine what, didn't want to come back and play Lex Luthor.
in what we could call a Kingdom of the Crystal Skull move, they rewrote the script to have basically Lex Luthor Lite played by Robert Vaughan. And Robert Vaughan is so good at impersonating Gene Hackman that I would have been quite happy for Robert Vaughan to be in all the movies. The other big difference is Richard Pryor. Richard Pryor probably, does he have more screen time than Christopher Reeve?
in Super 130, I think he might. I think he might.
Jett Loe (30:35.992)
Well, the thing is, here's the deal, dear listeners. It feels like, it's a Richard Pryor movie. Imagine if Richard Pryor, he's in Silver Streak and he continues on in his life and he just happens to live in a world in which Superman exists and he gets tangled up in a wacky Superman adventure. And that's when things, you can see people talk about derails, things starting to go off the rails a bit, but there's a reason.
Gareth (30:41.961)
It is a rich, it's
Gareth (30:58.913)
Well, I get the sense of it going off the rails and at the same time, I was watching it just before, I was going to say we came on air, but you you don't call it coming on air when you're not live. What do you call it? Record it before we got together to co-create this wonder?
Jett Loe (31:14.158)
It's one long conversation about the movies.
Gareth (31:16.211)
about the movie. So I was watching it this morning and here's the thing, you know, every Superman film takes place in three worlds. The space, smallville and metropolis, right? Those are the three basic worlds and they're there in Superman three and the grammar of this film is lovely. It doesn't move in a choppy way.
Jett Loe (31:24.174)
Okay, what are those three worlds? Yes.
Yes, okay.
Gareth (31:42.69)
you have a sense of place. actually quite, there's probably more in Smallville than there is in the previous films. There's a lot of Clark Kent going back and connecting with his high school friends and kind of having it generated within him this wistfulness of could I go back and have this life? And I'll say this for Richard Pryor. He's as funny, he's as funny, no, in this film, like Richard Pryor is someone.
Jett Loe (32:07.598)
He's genius.
Gareth (32:10.485)
Well, he's a genius, in feature films, never got the... Like you can't put the kind of genius of Richard Pryor into the sort of feature film scripts that he was given. Exactly. You know, and so there's moments where, like, you he dresses up as a general and he's kind of doing something that's a little bit like stand up. But this film is entertaining. This film is entertaining from start to finish. It also has the fantastic Scottish jazz singer Annie Ross in it for some reason, playing a hench lady.
Jett Loe (32:13.432)
Yes.
Jett Loe (32:20.364)
narrative films, because there's the film, the film standups, yes.
Gareth (32:40.321)
I actually really like Superman 3. I fear Jet and Dear Listener and maybe the Dear Listener have something to say about this, that you were in our Superman episode earlier this summer, were goading me by saying that you think that I might like Superman 3. When you said that, I was thinking, I don't really think I do like Superman 3, but watching it again, it's genuinely entertaining. And it also has that kind of bleakness thing that's in all the Superman films that people don't think about. That thing where like the...
I don't know, the wires are appearing over the person's face and kind of trapping them into the back. There's always a kind of a soup song of Bleak here. finally, I'll mention Pamela Stevenson, psychologist, sex therapist, comedian from not the nine o'clock news in the UK, is totally brilliant in this film as ditzy comic foil who turns out to not be so ditzy after all.
Jett Loe (33:40.878)
Yeah, and that kind of hearkens back to the current Superman film, which loves all these movies, by the way, regardless of how one might regard their qualities. even takes a... Well, it's... We'll talk about the Superman 4 because the new Superman film actually has a big plot point. It's actually coming from Superman 4. know, Superman 3, it's one of those movies where if you walk into it knowing, hey, this is going to be Richard Pryor film. I loved him in Silver Streak. I love him with the Gene Wilder pictures.
Gareth (33:47.775)
Yes. I think it's a hard, it's a hard getting forward.
Jett Loe (34:11.314)
see it as an adventure where he encounters Superman, then I think you're gonna have a better time. I kind of would like to have seen Gene Wilder. They should have those two. They'd have some wacky, imagine that Superman, he's got Gene under one arm and he's got Richard Pryor in the other and they're flying around because all the promotional material for this film when it came out is Christopher Reeve carrying Richard Pryor like a child flying, which does not inspire confidence.
Gareth (34:31.083)
Richard Pryor.
Jett Loe (34:35.47)
Yeah, you talked about the scary robot lady. There's that creepiness and there's a great bits of business because Superman does become kind of evil. There's a scene where basically becomes a drunkard and he's flicking nuts in a bar and he's unshaven. And it's a great example of Christopher Reeve's star power and his range. Because you absolutely believe it and he's incredibly menacing. And many people have said this before, I'm sure.
Gareth (34:36.214)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (34:44.129)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (35:00.322)
that his evil Superman suit, that coloring, that's the coloring you get in Man of Steel. So like the Man of Steel in those movies is the evil Superman. And there's one of the things that of goes into Superman 4, which is for film buffs out there. know that people listen, a lot of people are really into the movies, right? There are things that take you out. There are certain signifiers, and this always killed me when I was a kid. When you're watching a movie and say it takes place in United States, and you always see the same actors, and there's always something about them. And what it is is,
Gareth (35:06.709)
Yeah.
Jett Loe (35:28.558)
There is a set of actors who, for whatever reason, moved when they were younger to the UK from the US, or they came from Ireland, what have you. they were, so they had American accents. So they're always cast as the American in the film. So you're watching, it doesn't matter what you're watching. If you're watching Twilight's Last Gleaming, it's supposed to be somewhere in the Midwest, the Pacific Northwest. But if you see William Hoodkins, you go, oh, this is shot in the UK.
And actually William Hookens is actually in Superman 4. And for this one, it's Gavin O'Hurley, who I think was probably born in Ireland, maybe, but he has an American accent, he does an American accent. So when you see him, go, is he Dan O'Hurley? He's Dan O'Hurley's son? I did not know that. But well, we're gonna talk about Meryl Hemingway. I didn't know, I had no idea.
Gareth (36:06.843)
You know how to it son! Hold on... Gavin...
He's gotta be, he's gotta be... ...done with her Lily.
He is, he is, I know how he's done.
Jett Loe (36:22.798)
There we go. But my point is, so when you see him in something like Superman 3, it takes you out because like, you he plays an American in Never Say Never Again, the James Bond film. It's like, that's not shot in the US, it's cause he can do, or he's in Willow and what have you. So that kind of takes me out. That's a real big derail folks, which will lead us into the work of William Hoodkins in Superman 4, calling the quest for peace.
Gareth (36:42.433)
We're going to call it the Hoodkins O'Hurley trap. I think, by the way, Twilight Slash claiming was shot in Germany, but close enough, close enough. mean, yeah, it's easy. It's cheap to fly to Germany from England. OK, so we move on from Superman 3 to the next chronological film in the Superm... Well, that, course, that, course. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
Jett Loe (36:50.112)
It was shot in Germany, But it's close to the UK. Yes.
Yes.
Jett Loe (37:02.06)
Yes, your faith. Okay.
Wait, wait, this has got to be your favorite though. This has got to be your favorite because of the themes, no?
Gareth (37:10.539)
the theme is my favorite, but it's not the next Superman film chronologically. The next Superman film chronologically is Supergirl because there is a photograph of Christopher Reeve as Superman that appears in Supergirl. So I'm claiming it as a Superman film. I'm claiming it as a Superman film. And I'm going to say this, not to, know, despite what I said earlier about we don't do worst on this show. I guess it's possible to do worst because worst implies
Jett Loe (37:14.187)
Okay, okay.
Jett Loe (37:18.988)
Yeah.
Jett Loe (37:26.166)
Are you claiming that I will allow it? I will allow it.
Gareth (37:39.852)
that there is also best. And we've already mentioned John Williams' magnificent score for Superman and Superman 2. The score in Supergirl by another great Hollywood composer, Jerry Goldsmith, Alien, Basic Instinct, Patton. There you go, three great, I always try to say three positive things for every negative. Jerry Goldsmith's score of Supergirl is one of the most un-listenably,
discomforting scores I've ever heard. It's, let's just say it's epically squeaky. Supergirl indulges in the bleakness to the nth degree. There's a Phantom Zone with Peter O'Toole wearing a really ugly sweater. There's an evil villainess who sexually assaults Hart Bachner. And there's
Jett Loe (38:37.774)
It's true. It is true. That's what happens. It's true
Gareth (38:38.293)
There is, is, there is, is true. It's, yeah, yeah, it is true. And there's Simon Ward and Mia Farrow playing the Susanna York and Marlon Brando roles in a planet that's a bit more Jodorowsky than Donner's vision of Krypton. I watched this film so often when I was a child. I don't know particularly why. I don't know why.
Jett Loe (39:05.415)
wow.
Gareth (39:07.937)
Maybe we had, maybe it was one of the first VHS cassettes that we owned as a family. And I will tell you this, one of the things that it did to me, other than giving me a lifelong love of the lovely, lovely Helen Slater, very fascinating woman, very fascinating woman, just completed her PhD at the Pacifica Institute on a wrote a dissertation about mythology, which she has available on her website. You can read her dissertation.
Jett Loe (39:22.19)
She's great. She's great.
Gareth (39:35.906)
and I'm planning to. The other thing it did to me was I grew up thinking that Peter Cook and Peter O'Toole were somehow the same person. That changed when I watched Lawrence of Arabia. This film is stuffed full of things. Some of those. I think it was this thing. know, well, you know, know.
Jett Loe (39:49.15)
You haven't seen Lawrence of Arabia. You've seen Peter Cooks with Dudley Moore in Dudley Moore in the Alec Guinness role. No, no, Dudley Moore is Omar Sharif role. It's Dudley Moore.
Gareth (40:05.441)
So you know the way language operates as a child and the whole thing of object permanence and you associate different words with different things. I guess in my mind, because Peter Cook and Peter O'Toole both have the same first name, even though they look different, definitely for a few years, until my mid teens, I thought they were the same person. Or if I would see Peter Cook's name, I thought that was the Lawrence of Arabia guy. And if I saw Peter O'Toole's name, I thought that was the Pete and Dud.
Anyway, it has a terrible score. It has a lovely central performance. It's very bleak. That's Supergirl. What do you want? and Faye Dunaway. mean, you know, she gives it that... Like, Jean Hackman and pretty much everyone else in all of these films, unlike their... What's the word? Their heirs? Everybody in these films gives their all.
It's kind of like when you see serious actors in episodes of The Muppet Show. Vincent Price in The Muppet Show. No, they act like it's real. The verisimilitude thing never stopped. Until the curtain. It's funny. That's the thing I like the least about the new one is the speed with which it moves and the comedy is over-egged. I still love the film. So what do you think about Supergirl?
Jett Loe (41:08.878)
I'm I never phoned it in.
Gareth (41:30.827)
What have you got to say?
Jett Loe (41:31.054)
Well, here's, it's interesting. I didn't know that you watched it all the time, probably wearing out that VHS cassette. Cause I had never seen Supergirl until we decided let's do this, let's, let's do this show. And here's, I had a misconception of it. And my conception of it was probably something that I thought it was going to be like Superman 4. Because what happened with Superman 4 is that the people that own the rights to these movies as Sulkins to make these movies, sold the rights, needed some money, right? So they sold it to Canon for Superman 4, which means Superman 4 is really cheap and it looks cheap and it's got a huge number of problems. It doesn't have the production value.
Gareth (41:38.11)
Really? Really?
Gareth (41:47.296)
Yes.
Jett Loe (42:00.93)
of the other Superman pictures at all. And production value is a huge, big deal. If you think about these movies as advertisements for an American kind of heroism and American kind of leadership. So it's got to look expensive, right? It's got to look like a shiny Cadillac. So I assumed Supergirl would be the same way. So I was surprised right from the start. It's like, no, they spent a fortune on this thing. They spent a lot of money on it. It's beautifully produced. And as Gareth says, Helen Slater is great. She's fantastic. She's just as good as Christopher Reeve as a Superman. She's fantastic. It's just...
Gareth (42:25.057)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Jett Loe (42:29.326)
in a bizarre narrative wrapping of I don't know, of sexual harassment misogyny that is frankly bizarre and unsettling. Plus you get Peter Cook, he's really good. Peter Cook in the opening scenes, know, constructing stuff in the small city is great. But it's a very, very odd film. It's it's completely...
Gareth (42:37.227)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (42:57.048)
they went down the wrong path. I don't know why they settled on the idea of a witch. There's a kind of misogyny there. They did that because like, women, what are bad women? Bad women are witches. And it's an idea of female power that is very, I would say even for the day feels incredibly dated and not helpful. It feels hurtful. And it doesn't, it's a disservice to Helen Slater who does a fantastic job. And it does have a good,
Gareth (42:58.529)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (43:26.734)
creepy set piece, is reminiscent of Forbidden Planet in which you have an invisible monster. Again, it costs a lot of money, but it doesn't land because of just the bizarreness of the, you know, what are girls like? They're like, fun stuff and then going to girls' schools. And it just, it's very, very odd that way. So, you know, if you had a Billy Wilder coming in, just do it. You know, I'm a big Billy Wilder fan. Just do a big quick polish. Do a polish. But even that wouldn't work. You need to come, you need to just completely reconfigure what the movie is and what the themes are.
Gareth (43:32.501)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (43:40.576)
you
Gareth (43:48.481)
You
Gareth (43:56.226)
Yeah, I mean, it's worth watching as a kind of a curio about what was kind of acceptable back then. I do want to advocate, however, the very next film that Helen Slater made, a film called The Legend of Billie Jean. Have you ever seen this film? You've got to watch this film. I saw it for the first time last month. It had been advocated by Brian, who I get to share my life with, it's values regarding how it treats
Jett Loe (43:57.068)
I work. It is a curio.
Jett Loe (44:10.049)
I have not.
Okay.
Gareth (44:25.951)
or what it thinks about women are the inverse of what happens in Supergirl. I'm really surprised this film isn't better known. Really, really worth watching. Not brilliantly executed, but a film with a lot to say and Helen Slater is magnificent. Okay, so.
Jett Loe (44:30.626)
Interesting.
Jett Loe (44:46.752)
Is it, hold on, is it possible that there was an issue with the title? Cause I remember when it came out, I didn't want to see it because in my high school, there were two camps, those that loved Prince and those that loved Michael Jackson. And so there's a song called Billie Jean, Michael Jackson. So the assumption of all of my cohort was, this is something to do with the song. And if it had a different title, maybe something more punchy like Thelma and Louise.
Gareth (44:56.897)
Billy Jean, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, sure. Sure. then, it funnily enough that that is the jet supernatural telepathy thing working there because it is absolutely a precursor to film in the ways. And I had avoided it because I thought it was like a film, like a country music biopic or something like that. Although there's a few country music biopics that I really like.
Jett Loe (45:21.934)
So there you go.
Gareth (45:31.825)
Chief among them coal miners daughter. Anyway, watch the legend of the Billie Jean. We should do a bonus episode on the legend of Billie Jean at some point Very interesting film. Okay. Now we move to Superman 4 if the first was was classical drama the second was Was was more bleak. The third was British slapstick Superman for the quest for peace What I'll say about it is it is a political polemic
Jett Loe (45:37.614)
Okay.
Gareth (45:57.204)
And who knows how good it could have been if it had been well directed. Who knows how good it would have been if it had been well directed and well written and well cast. And I'm not saying that to be funny. I'm watching it. The ideas in this film, my understanding is Christopher Reeve personally wanted, mean, one of the reasons he came back, didn't want to make another Superman film, but he had the opportunity to say something about the threat of nuclear war and he wanted to.
to make a film that spoke about that. This is one of those films where the ideas, the value of the ideas far exceeds the execution. I'm led to believe there's like 40 minutes of it missing somewhere that have never been put back in. Maybe it would be a better film if those are back in there. It just felt to me like a real disappointment in terms of what it could have been.
And I think it probably comes down to, I don't want to blame the director because often directors of sequels frequently don't have anything like the power of organizing the material themselves because there's so much writing on it and there's so many other voices in there. It's not a good film about a really good idea.
Jett Loe (47:21.422)
Well, I think you've hit upon something. It is a really good idea. The idea that Superman is gonna sort of take responsibility and use his powers to get rid of the world of nuclear weapons. And a child asks him, know, help us Superman, please. And it's a good idea. And you watch this movie, you can imagine what if this had been the third Superman film when it was still produced by the Salkans and they had the money. Because what happened here with Superman 4 is, because it sold to Canon, this is, you know, they did a lot of cheapies Chuck Norris movies. They did one of my favorite films, Life Force by Tobey Hooper.
That was their biggest budget film at the time. Superman IV, had no money for anywhere near the scope of what they wanted to do, which leads to this sort of cheap feeling, even though the ideas are there. So you'll notice when you watch it, it's like, oh, he goes to the Great Wall of China. And then later he's at the foot of the Statue of Liberty, and it's the same set. It's the same gray bricks that are back there. Superman, the original one was sold, was marketed with a great line, you'll believe a man can fly, because the effects were so good.
Gareth (48:18.101)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (48:19.512)
his flying effects when you see him going up and down the streets, they're lowering them on wires, but they had people, these called rotoscoping kind of, they hand painted out the wires. Here they reuse the same shots over and over again of Superman flying and they're badly done. And that's an old technique, cheap TV technique you watch, Battlestar Galactica from the seventies. It's always the same shots of the Viper spaceships. But of course, they were done by John Dykstra, so the shots look great, it's just the same shots used over and over again. Here the shots look terrible and they're used over and over again, which leads to this cheapness.
Gareth (48:34.721)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (48:48.462)
And as Gareth said, yeah, you can watch 30 minutes of deleted scenes. Of course, all films have deleted scenes, but they cut out whole, basically whole plots that held the film together. So when you cut, there's a whole nother villain that he has to battle in the middle of the movie. They just cut it all out. And so when you remove all this connecting tissue and big subplots, then the film starts becoming nonsensical. You can't figure out the motivations for anything because we haven't seen those scenes. And it does suffer when I talked about William Hoodkins. Once you realize since he's in it, he's the guy that was in
Horkins in Star Wars and he gives the orders to kind of to Indiana Jones, Red's Lost Ark and he's the cop in Batman. He's everywhere. He's Zarkov's assistant in Flash Gordon. He realized, this is all shot in the UK. So whenever they have crowd scenes, like outside the UN, you look at it and I feel like I'm going to visit, I don't know, a concert from the Clash. everybody, he's like, these are UK people. They all have a certain, you can tell they all have the same kind of diet. They're not getting any sun.
It's true, it's like this, you're in the UK, you're not in the United States. But it does have a nice, we do get to see young Jim Broadbent, a wonderful British actor, playing a character, and I love this, his character's name is Jean-Pierre Dubois. So, but the ideas are good, but the set pieces are missing. So Gene Hackman, John Cryer playing his nephew, they have an idea that we're gonna, yeah, John Cryer, who?
Gareth (49:51.531)
We do. Yeah.
Gareth (50:10.945)
Yeah.
Jett Loe (50:11.438)
I mean, he gives a performance. He's doing what he's told. And they need to get some Superman's DNA. And this is a plot point in the new Superman as well, right? Which kind of takes from this or honors it. And it should be a big set piece of how you go in and steal like a hair of Superman that's in some big, you know, metropolitan exhibit. But in the film as shot and presented to us, the museum has the same level of security as like, you know, my daughter's grade school art show.
They just take a hammer and steal Superman's hair. I'm like, what? That should be a big set piece. So it really does suffer. But Sam Wanamaker is good and Meryl Hemingway. And I did not realize until we started doing this show, started recording to your listener that Meryl Hemingway is Hemingway's granddaughter. I didn't realize he was, I had, had, I had no, well, I know it's not that common, but.
Gareth (50:56.897)
Coincidentally, she has the same surname. It's twice in one episode. It's the O'Hurley-Heemingway axis.
Jett Loe (51:04.671)
Yeah, yes. An axis of, what would you call that? It's not an axis of evil. Hemingway O'Hurley. Have you, you know, that's where I get all my tweet. I get all my tweet from Hemingway O'Hurley-Taylors. It's a nice fit. It's not too scratchy. Okay, Superman IV, the quest for peace.
Gareth (51:09.761)
No.
Gareth (51:14.849)
You
Gareth (51:19.233)
Enter the discount code not too scratchy for a 10 % kickback. Do we get kickbacks on this show?
Jett Loe (51:29.518)
We give, we pay forward. We do not, we pay forward. We engage with the listeners so we can have a conversation about cinema and hopefully make the world a better place. All right.
Gareth (51:31.381)
We give kickbacks, we kick forward.
All right. Good. This 20 minute episode is now 40 minutes long and we're going to move to the next the next. Yes. No. Are we?
Jett Loe (51:46.488)
We're gonna make parts. gonna make, hold on. We gotta make it two parts. We're just making two parts. We're gonna end here and then we're we're gonna, we're not gonna end here. Let's end here. We're still gonna keep recording, but this is so long. We'll split it into two parts. Dear listeners, you'll hear from us soon when I post this second part because I really need to use the restroom now. I've been drinking gallons of coffee. I thought this would be 15 minutes long. We've been going for, I don't know, hours. All right. We'll talk to you again soon.
Gareth (51:58.528)
Okay, all right, all right, dear listeners.
Gareth (52:14.303)
I've been Gareth Higgins.
Jett Loe (52:16.044)
I've been Jet Low. We'll keep talking right after I get... It won't take that long. I got... All right.
Gareth (52:18.217)
in about five minutes.
Hey, me too.
Gareth (54:18.581)
Ahem.
Jett Loe (54:29.646)
All right, we're back now for part two. Gareth and I are feeling better. I feel a sense of relief.
Gareth (54:32.449)
Yeah, we're calling this the bonus of the bonus.
Jett Loe (54:37.74)
Yes, it's a double bonus. Double bonusing it,
Gareth (54:44.033)
All right, just get my headphones back in. Ready to go to talk about the next film in the chronological Superman universe is Man of Steel. Grey Steel, the whole film looks, the whole film. of course, sorry, yeah. You see, you threw me off my game by taking the break.
Jett Loe (54:46.369)
Okay.
Jett Loe (54:55.752)
Superman Returns, 2006.
Sorry, my friend. Superman, Ralph Ruth.
Gareth (55:06.217)
Ruth Ruth, the Ruth Ruth. A tribute film is what you called it at the time. It was one of the first films we talked about on the previous iteration of the film talk. I saw it alone. I mean, nobody else in the theater. It's a tribute film. It's fun and it has no texture.
Jett Loe (55:18.04)
That's right.
Jett Loe (55:25.944)
Big hit, is a tribute film.
Jett Loe (55:32.46)
You expand on that, what you mean it has no texture. I would say no meat on the bone.
Gareth (55:34.878)
It's, yes, that's it. I mean, so of course it has texture. It's just flimsy or superficial texture. It feels plastic to me. I like Brandon Ruthroth in it. I don't particularly like Kevin Spacey as Luther. The risk with a tribute film is it's less than the sum of its parts. And all it does is it makes you think about how much better the thing it's paying homage to is.
You know, even the fact that they use Brando or they kind of computer generate Brando again, just leaves me feeling like I want to watch the original. So there's, there's, there's not a lot. I mean, even Marie Saint, she's wonderful to watch, but the film just feels plastic to me. It doesn't feel like there's depth to it. And I guess what I meant by texture was that you could touch it and you feel like, like
The smallville in Donner Superman you can touch, whereas the smallville in Bryan Singer's film feels like it's not really there.
Jett Loe (56:45.218)
That's interesting, isn't it? Because there's another way of saying this and it sounds pejorative and that is saying that it's shallow, that it's a shallow take, that it's surface, that it's all on the surface and that way it becomes not engaging. And here's the example that I'll use. I may have talked about this before in various incarnations of the show, is that I had a bunch of discs of all the Superman movies. This is years ago when I was living in Belfast and I wanted to do a Superman marathon, right? So I had them all, had one through four.
Gareth (56:51.382)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (57:15.086)
and also this one. And I put the discs on, I was watching them on the old school IMAX and younger listeners won't know this, but they used to ship them with remote controls. Your IMAX would have remote control because you could use it as a movie display device. And I'm there, my little, kind of, kind of a penthouse apartment. It's kind of like a Lois Lane apartment, actually. had the Lois Lane from Superman, had a little patio and everything. And Margarita in Belfast.
Gareth (57:15.243)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (57:35.425)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (57:41.87)
Northern Ireland and I would watch them watching Superman movies every once in a while. It's a big marathon. I'm watch all day. I have to get something to eat. I have to pause to get a cup of tea. So I would use the remote control and I would pause. Oh, I'm watching Superman one or Superman two. I'm gonna pause it, make myself a cup of tea, come back, play. Oh, Superman three. Oh, I wanna get another cup of tea. I'm gonna pause, go to the kitchen, cup of tea. And then what I noticed is when I watched Superman Returns 2006, I'm watching, I'm watching. Oh, I want a cup of tea.
So I went to the kitchen, got myself a cup of tea and I realized I didn't pause it. In no way did I just like, yeah, I just keep it going. It didn't engage you. You were not enveloped in the film in the way that you were in the Richard Donner and Richard Lester pictures. And that's too bad. Everybody does their best. know, Brandon Routh.
Ruth is good. My favorite scene is no special effects. I he saves a big plane, it's a big special effects scene, but it has impact when he then tells people, they just went through a terrible experience because their plane's about to crash. like, hey, airplane travel's still the safest way to fly. And that sort of hearkens back to Christopher Reeve. it's like, yeah, you just need those little character hooks. Again, maybe Billy Wilder did a polish. But you're right, it's not engaging. The last thing I'll say, and it has to do with the genius of casting of Christopher Reeve.
Gareth (58:39.797)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (59:02.894)
Because Christopher Reeve famously said that when he told his dad he got the part Superman, his dad thought it was like a Nietzsche adaption, man and Superman. Because Christopher Reeve came from like that New England American aristocracy, right? You can trace yourself back to the Mayflower. And that's who Superman is. He's this aristocrat powerful figure from another world. And Christopher Reeve comes from, you know, a storied like New England family, right?
And whereas Brandon Routh was discovered bartending. I'm sure he was busting his ass to go into auditions and stuff, but that was the genius of Casting Reeves that he already had that in an American culture that heuristic, aristocratic mean, if that's how you want to put it, that kind of aura and that kind of, doesn't quite work. As good as an actor as Brandon Routh and Ruth is. Anyway, that is Superman, what is it? Returns? Is that what it is? Returns, he's gone, like you were gone for the month.
Gareth (59:56.416)
Returns, returns. He's gone, yes. And then he went away. He went away for a while and returned in Man of Steel, metallically bleak, thunderous, thunderously bleak, rainy film with Henry Cavill and Michael Shannon, the great Michael Shannon and Kevin Costner.
Jett Loe (59:59.921)
And now you have come back.
Jett Loe (01:00:24.206)
As his dad. in a scene that's famously mocked online now, it's you know, Kevin Costner, he gets blown away by a hurricane or whatever it is, and he tells his son not to save him. Why? Why? There's no, it's fine. It's fine if Superman saves him. It's not that, it's not, it's, well, compare that, at the same time. Well, think about it again, compare heavy special effects, ridiculous plotting, like don't save me heavy special effects compared to
Gareth (01:00:25.919)
As dad.
Gareth (01:00:30.463)
He gets blown.
Gareth (01:00:41.249)
It could be okay. Yes. Superman can do two things. He can have two thoughts at once. Yes.
Jett Loe (01:00:53.986)
Glenn Ford just touching his pulse to see how his heart is doing and just saying, you know, no, that's it. And that's what you need to know.
Gareth (01:01:00.225)
There's some differences there. There's some difference. Well, you also get Ayalid, Zura and Diane Lane, wonderful in this film. And...
I remember, I'm sorry I keep using this word bleak, but the strangest thing about watching this bunch of Superman films lately is they're a lot bleaker than I remember. And that can add depth, but sometimes it's there just for its own sake, like in the scene you just referred to with Kevin Costner being blown away.
Jett Loe (01:01:38.606)
I feel like you have nothing more to say about man and steel. Well, but.
Gareth (01:01:40.785)
I was about to say, I literally, I have so little to say about it I was about to say I have nothing left to say.
Jett Loe (01:01:46.368)
I mean, it has, there's little bits of business that are nice. You know, they handcuff Superman and then when he just, just moves his arms like almost a shrug and they just come, I mean, they just pop right up. That's really nice. Shows you how strong he is. But the idea of a benevolent figure who has struggles with their own issues. You know, these are the mythic stories of these gods and monsters. We've, as a people, we tell ourselves all the time. And you want...
I feel when you go to see a film like Superman, there to be an instructive message that makes you feel good about being a human being, even if you are not somebody with God-like powers. At least we have the ability to live, we are alive in the world, and we can help others. You should come out of a Superman film, I would argue, saying, I want to help somebody. I'm going to try to be a little bit kinder. I know, I had a rough patch here and things are rough, or there's bills to pay, your relatives are sick, or you've...
this illness in the family or what have you, we're all gonna die. It's our mortality that defines us as Picard says, right? In that Star Trek movie. And I don't feel that when I go see Man of Steel or Batman v Superman colon Don of Justice or Justice League. don't come out feeling hopeful and excited about being a human being and wanting to help.
Gareth (01:03:05.907)
No, no, mean the...
I don't know, the spiritual moral heart of Superman is faithfulness and doing what you say you will and living in service to the needs of others. the challenging question is who's gonna meet Superman's needs? when the films touch upon his vulnerability, as they do most notably in the most recent one, they're more helpful than, you know.
Jett Loe (01:03:31.075)
Yes.
Gareth (01:03:36.255)
movies about characters that we can't emulate because all of their power comes from beyond. Wow, we got all serious just there. There is one more Superman film that we haven't mentioned.
Jett Loe (01:03:44.014)
Well, there's two more. There's Batman v Superman colon Don of Justice. just, do you have anything you want to say about Batman v Superman colon Don of Justice?
Gareth (01:03:48.875)
Well, you just mentioned them. You just mentioned them.
Gareth (01:03:53.986)
No, no, and I'll say something about Justice League, but there is another one that we haven't mentioned, that hasn't been mentioned at all on this. No, we've talked about Supergirl. Don't you remember? That was only about 25 minutes ago. That was about 25 minutes ago we talked about Supergirl. No, no, there's another film in which Christopher Reeve plays Superman and Helen Slater plays Supergirl. And you loved this film and I loved this film. And I think therefore it constitutes a Superman film.
Jett Loe (01:04:00.0)
Supergirl.
There's a Shazam, Shazam. He has a cameo in Shazam.
Jett Loe (01:04:22.616)
Was it Sorcerer directed by William Friedkin? It is, it's still beautiful. the flash, yes. Okay, all right.
Gareth (01:04:24.797)
No, but that's a great film too. No, it was The Flash, The Flash, which is probably the most underrated comic book movie of the recent crop, which takes its moral heart really seriously as well. I will say this about Justice League. I've tried to watch the Snyder cut of Justice League and it certainly has
Jett Loe (01:04:49.132)
Yes.
Gareth (01:04:53.565)
an interesting look to it. And I don't know what they call it, the black and chrome edition, the chrome and steel edition, the shimmery gray edition, whatever it is. But I just haven't been able to get through it. And I don't know if that's my fault. Is that my fault? Why? Well, I didn't promise the listeners. I didn't promise the listeners. They want me to talk. They want me to talk about other things. Truly.
Jett Loe (01:04:59.042)
Mm hmm. Sure.
Jett Loe (01:05:09.646)
Yes, for the listeners, they're paying for your deep, deep insight. It's like four hours long. You know what? I think you're right there. I don't think any listener out there, I don't think there's one that's gonna be upset that you couldn't make your way through the Zack Snyder cut of Justice League.
You know, does, the Flash, you know, has lots of good stuff in it and it is true, they use CG to bring back various characters and it is, tugs at the heartstrings. And it's a really interesting film that deserves better than it's gotten. I will say as an aside that my wife had never seen the movie Flash Gordon, the wonderful Flash Gordon. My colleague is great for this, just as an aside, somebody, some people out there may appreciate this.
Gareth (01:05:58.391)
well, Mike Hodges, Mike Hodges.
Jett Loe (01:06:05.006)
And she's not into movies as I am, dear listeners. And one hour into Flash Gordon, she leans over to me, my hand to God and whispers, when's he gonna use his super speed? And God bless her, I had to break it to her that Flash Gordon is not the same character as The Flash. But once she got that, we were able to power through the rest of the wonderful Flash Gordon.
Gareth (01:06:31.499)
Listen.
Gareth (01:06:35.521)
Well, as we move toward wrapping this up, my dear friend and dear listener.
Jett Loe (01:06:37.964)
Yes. What is your favorite? You're rank these. Like what is yours? Is it the first one? What's your favorite? What is yours at Superman 3? Gavin O'Hurley's performance, the drunken performance Richard Pryor.
Gareth (01:06:48.097)
It's the, it's the, the, my, my favorite film in which Christopher Reeve or a facsimile of Christopher Reeve appears as Superman is Richard Donner's 1978 Superman with The Flash as a close second.
Jett Loe (01:07:05.389)
Wow, that's a... Well, you know what? I'm gonna have to go with Superman. The combined versions, yes. Why not? Who wouldn't? I would combine both cuts of Superman. I would take parts of Superman 2, Richard Donner version and the Richard Lester version. I'd combine them. I rearranged some scenes to combine those. And then, can you guess what my number three is? It's gonna be a surprise. It's gonna be a shocker.
Gareth (01:07:06.015)
What about you?
Gareth (01:07:14.347)
Yes, I think we all would.
Gareth (01:07:34.177)
Is it one that we've mentioned or is it going to be one of those signature jet moves where you say something that you haven't mentioned already?
Jett Loe (01:07:40.59)
It's going to be sorcerer. it's it's you want to guess what my my third favorite Superman. No, Superman. Number number two is both versions of Superman. Yes. So my
Gareth (01:07:46.178)
Run through them again. What's number one? Number one is Superman. Number two is both versions of two, right? Two plus two divided by two is two, okay? Got it. What could it be? Look, it's the quest for peace because of the ideas.
Jett Loe (01:07:59.778)
So my third favorite one is, it is the quest for peace. You are correct sir, you have won because of the themes of the film, which I think are fantastic and valid and they just needed more money. And it's got a wonderful Sam Weinemecher, Weinemecher, Weinemecher performance. Weinemecher, Weinemecher.
Gareth (01:08:06.785)
I don't know.
Gareth (01:08:17.633)
Wanna make your playing Ripper Murdoch, playing Ripper Murdoch.
Jett Loe (01:08:21.298)
playing playing Rupert Murdoch and it's got Hemingway's granddaughter in there and it has whole scenes that in the hands of more money better directors the big major comedy set pieces he has to be both Clark Kent and Superman at the same time zipping out of windows changing costumes and again in the hands of Richard Donner I mean that would have been a you know a great you know it's a very Preston Sturgess-esque comedy souffle there that would have been great so I would go with Superman 4 and then all the rest you know we've already discussed our feelings about them
Gareth (01:08:48.449)
I like to think that the film talk is a Preston Sturges-esque comedy souffle with a garnish of classical drama.
Jett Loe (01:08:59.79)
Well, it's got to have stakes, you know, because President Surgis, oh brother, where are thou's insolvence travels. You know, gets spoilers, he gets arrested, he goes on a chain gang. So I feel like you and I, there has to be, there has to be stakes when we're talking about the movies, because you know, is cinema in crisis? Maybe it's not in crisis. I mean, I went to see Weapons the other day, I couldn't go see Weapons because the cinema was sold out. So are movies back? People love Weapons. I love Weapons. You have not seen it yet. You're going to be talking about Weapons? Yes, it's great. Come on, we'll talk about it. You got it. I know you're not a big horror fan, but we're here.
Gareth (01:09:19.083)
What?
Gareth (01:09:22.465)
Did you get to see it yet? Did you get to see it yet? Yeah, good. Okay, good, good. Yeah, I'm gonna see it. Is it gonna scare the living daylights out of me?
Jett Loe (01:09:31.15)
Have you seen Barbarian, the other film? That film would probably scare, that film was probably scary, more weapons is unsettling, but it's an important motion picture and we'll talk about it.
Gareth (01:09:33.578)
No.
Gareth (01:09:40.097)
I'm looking forward to, I'm also looking forward to, I don't want to date this because it's a bonus episode that will live forever. I'm looking forward to another film starring other people directed by somebody else. I don't want to date it. No, that's not what I'm talking about. going to go see, you know, I mean, we, know, cinema, yeah, maybe cinema's in crisis, but there's also a new Spike Lee, Denzel Washington film out this weekend.
Jett Loe (01:09:45.415)
It is. Yes.
Eddington is a good one. Okay.
Jett Loe (01:10:01.902)
Oh yeah, the Kurosawa one, right? Yeah, the high and low folks, the good stuff, high and low. Well, listen, thanks for indulging us as you do, dear listeners. know, thanks for subscribing to our Patreon, Gareth, and I really appreciate it. Because it does make us, it gives us the ability, it gives me the space, the space to produce the show. It keeps the lights on as it were. Well, I enjoy talking to Gareth on these couple bonus episodes. It has been.
Gareth (01:10:03.455)
Yeah, yeah, so.
Gareth (01:10:25.759)
It's been good, it's been a while. Dear listener, thank you for joining us for this bonus of the bonus. May the hurley... May the hurley... May the hurley... May the hurley... hurley... May the hurley... it'd be great. Yes.
Jett Loe (01:10:30.936)
Double bonus.
Jett Loe (01:10:35.783)
May your God. Okay, Dave, dear listeners, this is a bonus episode so Gareth and I can drop the mask a little bit. know, UK listeners, Irish listeners, Dave Allen. Yes, there was Dave Allen was a British, or you know, sorry, I am so sorry. No, no, no, no, he's an Irish, Irish, Irish.
Gareth (01:10:46.609)
If I was sitting on a bar stool with a glass of whiskey and a cigarette in my hand...
He was not able to thank you very much. You're definitely falling into the hurly-hee anyway. Alan Black Hole. Oh, he was. Yeah.
Jett Loe (01:11:00.962)
Irish comedian, I loved him as a kid, Dave Allen, mayor. What was it? May your God go with you.
Gareth (01:11:05.985)
May the Hurley-hee, may you get, yes, yes. May the Hurley-hee Hemingway, there I said it, I said it, the Hurley-hee Hemingway axis be with you as long as it's life-giving.
Jett Loe (01:11:10.446)
What?
Jett Loe (01:11:18.926)
Dear listeners, I love talking with Gareth. Thank you so much for listening. I've been Jed Lowe.
Gareth (01:11:23.103)
I've been Gareth Higgins, I love talking with me too and we'll... I do, I do, sometimes. know, the voices in my head, there's a lot of wrestling going on there. But at the core of it all is love.
Jett Loe (01:11:31.598)
you
Jett Loe (01:11:43.766)
so dear listeners, here's the thing, because this is your bonus subscriber. You know, the show is edited. show is, hold on, the show is normally edited. This is not, we're just letting you hear. This is how Gareth and I just talked. We're not editing anything. This is us. I've been Jet Low.
Gareth (01:11:48.331)
Yes, you know it's true. You know it's true.
Gareth (01:11:54.687)
Yes.
I've been Gareth Higgins.
Jett Loe (01:12:01.432)
We'll keep talking.
Gareth (01:12:02.537)
next time.