Six episodes later, the ranking project finally reaches the summit. Jett and Gareth reveal their respective No. 1 Steven Spielberg films, argue about greatness, wander briefly into Vincente Minnelli’s Lust for Life, and confront the terrifying possibility that ranking art may have told us more about themselves than Spielberg.
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Jett Loe
Folks, we finally made it. My personal pledge to you as a co host of the film talk is that this is our final, very final ranking of all the Spielbergs, all the theatrical Spielbergs ranked final show. I can't wait to get into it. We're the theme music is gonna pop in here in a second. You're gonna hear my co host, Gareth. You're here right now, you're listening to me. Isn't it interesting?
Gareth (04:35.939)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (05:02.006)
Isn't it interesting that organically, without us talking to about it, we each pick separate films, but actually maybe they're the same film?
Gareth (05:10.803)
I'm I'm before we get into whether they're the same film, I'm I'm nervous, Jet. I'm nervous you the first words out of your mouth were we fine were we finally made it. Don't count your chickens. Don't count your chickens. We can we can say that at the end of the episode. We can say that at the end of the episode.
Jett Loe (05:25.954)
That's true. We haven't recorded the show.
Jett Loe (05:30.946)
That's true, we haven't recorded yet. Let's see what happens.
Hey there folks. Welcome back once again to the film talk. It's one very long conversation on the art and meaning of the movies. This is episode number three hundred and forty two. It's part six of all of Steven Spielberg's wonderful, wonderful director and apparently a really nice guy. all of his theatrical films ranked. Part six, I'm Jet Lowe.
Gareth (05:42.952)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (05:55.912)
Gareth Higgins, the conversation never ends. But we'll see where we'll we'll see what happens today. Yes, dear listener, thirty-five theatrical releases, and we've spent oceans of time discussing them recently. we began in the run-up to the release of Disclosure Day, which I believe has recently been selected for preservation in the National Archive. We've been at this so long, and we watched most, if not all, of
Mr. Spielberg's films again. And when we came to number one on the list, we just decided we should do a dedicated episode to each of our favorite Spielberg films. Although is favorite the word or is this best, favorite, greatest, A-list, elite, asterisk, highlighted? Okay. So how are we gonna do this? How are we gonna do this? We're gonna we're gonna reveal to the dear listener what
Jett Loe (06:47.842)
Yes.
Gareth (06:54.469)
Your number one is and we talk about it first and then we reveal what mine is and we talk about that.
Jett Loe (06:58.872)
Sure. That sounds, you know, I that sounds simple. we don't plan these shows ahead of time. We're kind of like you know, progressive acid free jazz. you know, we we we feel it. Listen, folks, man's made a lot of movies, but yeah, it's a genre I just invented. you know, I'm always innovating. I'm always innovating, Gareth. I'm like Roy Neary crafting.
Gareth (07:05.231)
Yeah.
Gareth (07:09.72)
Hm.
Progressive acid free jazz.
Jett Loe (07:27.55)
A giant devil's tower out of somebody's garbage. And I'm not saying our show is garbage and I'm crafting it.
Gareth (07:33.533)
Which for some reason he has to throw through a closed window.
Jett Loe (07:37.494)
Now, is it true that that was not in one of the versions? Like that whole scene is cut, right? Isn't that correct? Like, maybe is that in the theatrical version and like, or not in the theatrical version? There's a lot of different versions. I know Carl Weathers is in one version of Close Encounters, because Close Encounters of the Third Kind, folks, that to me is my top Spielberg film. And I'm gonna tell you why. Close Encounters of the Third Kind, 1977's box office smash. Colorful, thrilling, scary, romantic, sentimental.
Gareth (07:42.003)
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
Gareth (07:51.111)
Action Jackson.
Gareth (07:55.187)
Close encounters of the third kind.
Jett Loe (08:08.332)
Wide-eyed, terrifying, close encounters of the third kind. Gareth, before I say why I I've picked it, do are you a fan of the Close Encounters of the Third Kind?
Gareth (08:17.885)
I am a fan of the Close Encounters of the Third Kind, originally titled Watch the Skies, who's who's I think the first the first pass at the at the script was done by Paul Schrader. And I I I I I read. Paul Schrader's really fascinating. These are read Paul Schrader being interviewed these days, read him on Facebook. The guy's unbridled. He just says what he thinks. He clearly doesn't have a publicist. And he said something recently about why his close encounters
Script wasn't used, and he said because it was too full of guilt. And I'm like, more than ever I want to read Paul Schrader's Close Encounters script. It's about a man who works for a utility in the mid in in the flyover country, no pun intended, no pun intended, and he has he has an encounter with light that causes him to go on a journey in which he's willing to give up.
Jett Loe (09:05.614)
That's a zinger.
Gareth (09:15.127)
everything that matters in favor of the dream of something greater. And it's a thrilling film from start to finish. And I'm wondering, Chad, is it possible, is it possible that we might have a clip?
Jett Loe (09:29.56)
Sure, we can have a clip, but which one? I just kind of want to play the whole film, frankly. Here's one of the most devastating scenes in Spielberg's filmography. Roy has had this terrifying, yet exhilarating experience, encounter with something that is beyond his understanding. and he's breaking down, and his wife wakes up in the middle of the night, can't find him. And it turns out that he's in their bathroom, locked door, clothed in the bathtub.
Gareth (09:51.047)
Hm. Yeah.
Gareth (09:57.085)
Clothed.
Jett Loe (09:58.2)
Breaking down. Let's listen in.
Jett Loe (10:03.202)
And you can't see that in the with this audio podcast, folks, but in in the scene itself, one of his children, his oldest child, sees them and reacts fearfully and in rage, calling his, you know, his dad a a crybaby. It is it is devastating. And anybody's had kids. I mean, this film's I have a couple of kiddos, and this film is incredibly realistic when it comes to family life. And of course, Spielberg has a wonderful affection for children. Amazing how how powerful it is.
Can I tell you why this is my number one, Gareth? Because it's a great film. We can talk about the filmmaking. We can talk about all the wonderful camera work, like all the stuff I loved in Disclosure Day, and the blocking and the beautiful cinematography and the soaring John Williams score. But for me, I'm going to tell you why this is my top Spielberg.
Gareth (10:49.044)
Tell me.
Jett Loe (10:51.138)
Here's the thing. Now we we've seen like what what is it? Meet the Fablemans or join the Fablemans or what's it called? The Fable, the Fablemans go to Disneyland. What's the name? It's just the Fable. It's the Fable Mons. So, and we all know stories about Spielberg and there's this traumatic divorce, right? It happens in in when he was a child. All this family drama. And what happens in in in close encounters is that there is a traumatic event.
Gareth (10:57.928)
The fable of the Fablements. The Fable of the Fablements.
Jett Loe (11:16.426)
As the film opens, it's not like happy happy family. I saw the description IMDB talks, close encounters. Roy Neary, you know, electrical lineman who lives a quiet life. And that's not true. We see nothing but chaos in his life. Doesn't seem to be a happy marriage at all. Wife doesn't seem to be supportive, he doesn't seem to be in, you know, working well with his wife. Yet
Gareth (11:37.287)
And his k his his kids his kids don't get him. Which is fine. I mean it's it's it's I think it's unfair for parents to think, my children don't understand me. But but one of the things that's established about Roy is that he is very much in touch with what you could call his inner child. He wants to take the kids to see Pinocchio, he has the train set and stuff like that, but the kid he he can't connect with his kids.
Jett Loe (11:42.892)
Well
Yeah.
Jett Loe (12:01.73)
That's true. He's trying. He's using his own toys. And in fact, as Roy is in he's talking about inner child, he has an elaborate train set. So he has in some level, he's, you know, I'm not gonna say he's stunted, but he is playing with toys as as a child would. He's not and this is interesting because the the train is a pre-made set. He's working on it, but these are things that he buys. He is not yet an artist. And what happens? He has this amazing, he's going through trauma and as
During the course of the film, he receives, he achieves a state where he has a directive, he has a compulsion to create. He becomes a sculptor. Other people in the in the movie become like, you know, painters or artists or they're musicians, what have you. He becomes a sculptor. So we think about young Steven Spielberg and a traumatic experience of this divorce in his family. And he then focuses in on movies. He then becomes an artist. And this is for me why Close Encounters is the
ideal Spielberg film because it's his own development as an artist. Through trauma, he transforms himself into an artist. Roy Neary becomes an artist, he becomes a sculptor, and he then ascends, like Dave Bowman at the end of 2001, because there's plenty of s of Kubrick in this, right? It's the same kind of journey. He goes through this transformative thing and then ascends into the heavens to like David Bowman becomes the star child. And for me, that processing of trauma, that transformation, makes this my top Spielberg film. In addition, it just works as a movie.
Right. It's it's thr it's what genre is it? It's like a thriller, it's like a conspiracy thriller thriller, like you're watching Parallax View or Three Days of the Condor or Winter Kills. What? What? Yeah.
Gareth (13:36.319)
I was gonna say hold on, hold on. Parallax view. That that kind of arena where where Francois Truffaut does the explanation of the sounds and the guys doing the is that the same arena that Warren Beatty dies in spoilers, dear listener, maybe cut that. Is that the same arena in the at the climax of the parallax view? I think it is.
Jett Loe (13:49.058)
Yes. Yeah, it's a parallax view.
Could be.
Jett Loe (14:03.71)
It could it could it could be because when we think about films like the Manchurian Candidate, Parallax View Assassination Films, there is always that arena. There's always this idea of this is where people come together, there's empty liminal spaces. And it's very powerful in close encounters because we have this empty arena. It's like this is a powerful governmental organization that can book out, yeah, a coup a couple dozen people and then they can book it all out. And that absolutely feels like when you're looking at that scene, it feels right out of.
Gareth (14:11.784)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (14:20.594)
Yeah, it's like an eight thousand seater arena with maybe f maybe a hundred people in it. Yeah.
Jett Loe (14:31.554)
The parallax view. So this film transcends genres and also has such a fascinating structure. Can you imagine a blockbuster of people always say, they don't make movies like that anymore? I don't think they even made them then, where the structure of the film is such. We have the family life, inciting incident with UFO. Then this becomes this thriller. And then the last third of the film is is, you know what it is. It's just occurring to me, folks. It's the Stargate sequence. It's a re rethinking of 2001.
Gareth (14:57.641)
Yeah.
Jett Loe (14:58.328)
2001, the end, you had the last third going through this incredible light show that David Bowman goes through, and he's going through space. And in Clockwork Orange, you're grounded. You're not going through space. The light is coming to you, but you're going through sound. And it's a fantastic structure. It's unusual and thrilling. It's horrifying. There's scenes in the farmhouse with little Barry that are just as terrifying as Poltergeist and clearly are on the same spectrum in terms of filmmaking.
as poltergeist. in fact he even redoes a little a little poltergeist thing in I think what's gonna be your number one film and we'll talk about that in a in a second. So for me this for all these reasons, this through trauma transformation, artistic transformation, Close Encounters is my is my number one.
Gareth (15:47.571)
Well, of of of course it is. It's a genuinely magical film and there is some bleak magic in it too. You've all you've already mentioned this totally terrifying sequence when this little little boy Barry is is abducted by what we have no reason to believe is anything other than evil monsters. And his his his mother Melinda Dylan
Great actor, by the way. Really, really, really great at portraying the abject horror of having your child taken from you. I think it establishes Neary's family beautifully. Terry Gar, God bless Terry Gar. No, she's brilliant in it. And I think she's br sh no, I don't well. mean, I'm not sure what you mean by thankless there. Like she she stands out for me. There's a there's a moment in it where
Jett Loe (16:31.872)
Is that a thankless role?
Jett Loe (16:36.32)
No, she is, but is it a faithless role?
Gareth (16:43.538)
I think r please remind me if I'm missing this here. There's I th I think he says it was like an ice cream cone, and she says, what flavor? There's parts of this film that are that are really funny. And there's this gorgeous moment when when you've when you're familiar with this film, and you and I have been watching this film I mean, I've been watching it for 40 years. and I I feel like I know it really well. There's a moment when
Jett Loe (16:53.294)
She's
Yes.
Gareth (17:13.33)
When he brings her out to the little bendy road where he has seen the the the lights the night before because he wants her to see them too. And there's a moment where he puts his arm around her and it's moving, and you wish that he will find his way back to her. Because as I watch this film now, it's really hard not to see it as a tragedy, because it ends with him abandoning his family.
And all the evidence points to the fact that if he gets onto this craft, his kids might actually be dead by the time he comes back. You know, we've just seen these kind of World War II veterans appear appearing. And so, you know, Spielberg did subsequently say that as he as he grew older, as he became a father, that I I don't know that he said that he regretted making close encounters, but that he he wouldn't do that again.
Jett Loe (17:52.834)
Yes. I Einstein was right, as they say, yes, the time dilation.
Gareth (18:12.496)
And it's interesting that, you know, E. T. ends with it's the alien that goes home and Elliot gets to to to to to to to grow up. I do find the film it's not that I feel ambivalent about it, it's that I genuinely feel it's tragic that this happens.
Jett Loe (18:27.416)
Well, I think that that's exactly that's exactly right. And I think that it's all the richer for it, right? It doesn't have a happy ending because guess what, folks? you know, we're all we're all on on the way out, so act accordingly, as Jack Nicholson said in The Departed. Life is full of tragedy, and that tragic element of the film is another reason for me that it elevates it. Like if if Kerry Garr and the kids were there at the end and everything worked out, it it would just wouldn't have the same impact. Life
Gareth (18:32.718)
sure.
Gareth (18:48.563)
You're you're
Gareth (18:54.312)
Well
Jett Loe (18:54.7)
Life is full of hives, but it's also full of things that you can't ever change. you know, I can't go back and and change some of the terrible things that I did. Am I haunted by guilt? Yes. What can I do about that? How do I atone? Do you know what I mean? Life is full of tragedy.
Gareth (19:08.456)
Well, you know, you could Yeah, and you're asking that question and you're and living amends and you're you big on this word fool. That's interesting that you said it's f full of tragedy and then you said it's all it's full of highs. I don't know what fool it is and like I I don't I don't tend to think that we we live in this perfectly calibrated universe where there's there's fifty percent good and fifty percent bad. The question is what are we gonna do with the hand we've been dealt? And I don't judge Roy for
Wanting to get on that ship, I'm sure I would have wanted to do that too, you know, and and maybe I kind of would have thought, Well, these magical alien beings, they're probably gonna find a way to be able to send me back in time, so it'll all be all right in the end. As an analogy for how calling a sense of vocation can drive you mad before it settles, it's brilliant. No.
Jett Loe (19:56.622)
True. Well, I mean he didn't ask for this. He didn't yeah, he didn't ask for this. It's and it is you can see it as a is is a compulsion. It's a compulsion. As as you know, if you're are you can be compelled to create to create. You know, in my mind, what is it in Vince Lust for Life, right? Kirk Douglas as as Vincent Van Gogh, you know, yelling out at at Paul Gauguin, I've got to paint.
Gareth (20:09.075)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (20:22.984)
Ha ha ha
Jett Loe (20:23.37)
Do you know I've used that line for years and then I rewatched it and I he never says that. But for years I've told people that Kirk Douglas yells that line at Paul Gogan. And I think it's just because of his performance in Lust for Life. But anyway, he's he's well, there he did there's no equivalent. It's just I it's just his overall performance at no, not like that. It etched into my mind. It must have just a f pure physicality of Kirk Douglas you know, etched itself into me.
Gareth (20:36.712)
What does he say?
Gareth (20:40.85)
He doesn't go he doesn't got to anything.
Gareth (20:45.767)
Uh-huh.
Gareth (20:52.466)
Great great beard, on on on Kirk. One la one last thing about closing counters that I I found intriguing this time was the realization that the Gillian, Melinda Dylan's character, who is at all costs searching for for Barry, her her little son who's been stolen from her. there's a parallel here with what n Roy is doing. Roy is actually searching for integration with his own inner child. They're both looking for
Jett Loe (20:52.974)
Close close encounters.
Yes, sir.
Gareth (21:22.344)
their their child and they both get their child back in the end. Definitely a mistake that Spielberg has acknowledged when he came out with the special edition a couple of years later that shows footage of what happens when Roy goes inside the the the the the craft. You've seen that, right? You've seen that and never want to see it again. Say what?
Jett Loe (21:39.768)
I have. I don't I saw it when it came out. I saw it when I was like a child, like, yeah, you don't want to see that because that's like that's like Kubrick saying it's well it's like it's like Kubrick saying, Don't don't show the aliens. Why don't we see the aliens in two thousand one? Because you can't show them. It's ineffable, it's beyond our conception. Therefore you can don't show what it's like being born. It's beyond it's beyond the conception.
Gareth (21:45.106)
Y it's terrible. It's terrible. Yes. Yeah. It's
Gareth (21:59.103)
So do you do you do you remember what actually happens in that sequence? 'Cause I watched it for this episode. It's wild. It's wild.
Jett Loe (22:06.246)
I all I remember is it it reminded me does he go up a space elevator? It's kinda like going into San Francisco Hyatt.
Gareth (22:12.71)
So what happen what happens is they use they use footage that I guess they shot at the time, effects footage of inside the ship and you and you see that there's many, many levels that they do look like the inside of of of yeah, yeah. and you see like figures, lots of lots of what appear to be b human beings and aliens on these on these floors together and and those they match the the effects.
Jett Loe (22:28.142)
of a Hyatt Regency in San Francisco. A big atrium, you know.
Gareth (22:42.148)
from earlier. You still don't need to see it. But they shot at new footage with Richard Dreyfus, who is obviously older than he was when he when he made the film and has a different slightly different hairstyle. And God bless him, he gives it his all. He stands there with a light shining on his face. And all the acting that he does is he he kind of looks in awe and big smiles. so it's terrible. And
And credit credit to Spielberg for credit to Spielberg for not suppressing the the special edition, you know, in the in the way that George Lucas has done with the original Star Wars films. to suppress things.
Jett Loe (23:09.582)
Not necessary, it's bad storytelling.
Jett Loe (23:20.502)
You only have so much time in the day.
Jett Loe (23:26.51)
To do anything. It's like, okay, yeah, are you really gonna spend time on this dealing with this issue? No, move on. Like let's let's make another movie or do some work.
Gareth (23:29.97)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well it's just it's interesting. You with with on the on the Blu-ray you can see all th all all three editions if you're if you're into that kind of thing. Anyway, pardon me, now you're going to? Yes, you should. You should. There's only so much time in the day unless you're Jet, who has endless time, because Einstein was right.
Jett Loe (23:39.009)
Now I'm going to.
Yes, I can't wait.
Jett Loe (23:51.35)
I'm travelling very fast right now, my friends. All thanks to our new sponsor, Lo Espresso.
Gareth (23:53.173)
So that is a after having after having watched it and after having having been through the this journey, the Spielbergen journey, is it still your number one?
Jett Loe (24:00.685)
Yes.
Jett Loe (24:07.378)
yeah, absolutely. For the reasons I said, because I think it goes to the heart of of what compelled or helped transform the the young man into the artist, right? Portrait of the artist as a young man, right? Is that the James Joyce book? It's like that. It's we get a sense of why he became the the great artist that that he is.
Gareth (24:25.524)
Very lovely. Shall we talk about my number one? I don't know. Am I saying it's favorite or greatest? I don't know if it's my favorite. I don't know if I played by the same rules that you played by. AI Artificial Intelligence, which as you know, dear listener, was a a a film developed by Stanley Kubrick based on a story by Brian Aldous called Super Toys Last All Summer Long. And there, you know, they've been
Jett Loe (24:31.894)
I can't wait to can't wait to talk about Ready Player One with you.
Gareth (24:53.406)
the kind of received wisdom about this film is that Spielberg decided after Kubrick's death that he was gonna make it. It's it's actually seems more like what happened was he and Kubrick had talked about it for years and Kubrick had long before he died said to Spielberg, you should make this film. And I suspect he decided to make it his next project as a as a tribute to to Kubrick. The other thing that's that's most known about it is that a lot of people think the ending
is a sentimental in in in the kind of popular mind Spielberg style cheesy ending. Now, first of all, I hope, dear listener, if you've made it this far to our sixth Spielberg in episode, you will know that we we think that that the charge that Spielberg is superficially sentimental just does not hold water. There is bleakness in his films from the start. There is a serious appreciation of death
of suffering, of loss, of being separated from from parents. And yes, there's something moving too, but if you think about the kind of quintessential Spielberg Heartstrings moment, which I would say is the end of E.T., as I've already mentioned on this episode, that's in which that's a moment in which the father figure leaves to never be seen again. This is not a happy moment. And the ending of AI
Is not a happy ending. I do want to say if you've not watched AI, s maybe stop listening to the episode right now because we want to talk about it with with spoilers. I'd I would love you to be able to see it without knowing how it ends. So that's that's fair warning. We're gonna talk about it with spoilers from this point forward. The ending of AI is one of the saddest endings of any story that I've ever heard. And it tugs on the heartstrings for sure.
But it's not a cheesy sentimental ending. It's a confrontation with the possibility that human beings might wipe ourselves out. along the way, it's an exploration of why do we similar to what you said about Roy in closing corners, why do we create? One of the one of the characters actually says, Didn't God create Adam to love him? Why does anybody make art? It's a haunting film, it's a challenging film.
Gareth (27:18.356)
There's elements in it that are as as I was gonna say as troubling as anything in Schindler's list. I shouldn't say that because Schindler's List is is obviously about factual events, but really bleak, horrifying stuff, and gorgeous set design and gorgeous pacing and extraordinary performances, not just from Haley, Joel, Osmond, but it's the best thing Jude Law has ever done and the best thing Jude Law has ever been in. Say again. Yeah, yeah.
Jett Loe (27:41.436)
yeah.
Yes, absolutely.
Gareth (27:46.906)
And Frances O'Connor as as the the mother character, what happened to Frances O'Connor? Why isn't she in every movie? Sam Robards, too, it's just delicate is not the word. It's it's tender in the right ways, it's distant in the right ways. I love it. I've been watching it for 25 years. I remain haunted by it. And
While I don't know that it's my favorite in in terms of the Spielberg film that I most want to rewatch, I think it's certainly his best film. What do you think about AI, artificial intelligence, dear jet?
Jett Loe (28:27.192)
W well, like you know, like I said before we kicked into theme music, it's interesting we b we picked these two films because as you mentioned, you know, Roy Neary at the beginning of Close Encounters wants to take his kids to Pinocchio and the whole narrative thrust of this movie of AI colon, is there a colon, comma? Just AI artificial intelligence, a little clunky title there. is the is a riff on Pinocchio explicitly with
Gareth (28:39.475)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (28:53.832)
Yeah. David wants to be a real boy. Mm-hmm. I mean And and he's the but he's also the most human character in the film. Like isn't I mean Br Brandon's human in all the wrong ways in this film.
Jett Loe (28:56.49)
a real boy and it's so the similar themes of how to become, right? Roy Neary has the
Jett Loe (29:05.375)
Well, what about Brendan Gleason?
Jett Loe (29:11.726)
He reminds me of somebody. no, they're both about about films about a how to become, right? Roy Neary has the compulsion. Through his trauma, he makes art. And similar with Hay Haley Joel Osman, he wants to become. He wants to become real. He's realizes he's artificial and he wants to be made real. So they're very similar in that respect. How do how does one become? And as you said, this is a gorgeous film. You watch it today. This was made, we talked about this before in our Field of Dreams episode.
Before before digital took over, film stock, this was the high point of film stocks. So it has this incredible, lush, beautiful look. It is a gorgeous looking film, maybe his most best looking film. Look at the scenes of of David in the woods when his mother abandons abandons him like a like a dog you're trying to get rid of that you love, but you can't take care of the dog or the cat anymore. The film is absolutely gorgeous. Grounded by you talked about Hal Haley Dual Osman.
It's an extraordinary performance. I you'd say this is up with the one of the greatest screen performances of any movie I've ever seen, much less the fact that the guy is, you know, a ch a a child. It's it's unbelievable. Of course, Spielberg has a deep affection for children, so he knows how to direct. Look how he directed Barry. I know that's amazing how he got the performance out of the child that played Barry in Close Encounters. Is there anything more mysterious yet oddly terrifying in Close Encounters when we in the audience, having not seen the aliens, see Barry's reaction to the aliens and we're we're creeped out, but also
Gareth (30:11.698)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (30:36.632)
Full of terror and full of awe at the same time. And we get that in in AI, artificial intelligence, in incredible performance.
Gareth (30:44.178)
Something I noticed watching it this time around is the the effects in this film are utterly seamlessly integrated in ways that a lot of effects in movies made today don't feel real. Like it's it's it's kind of there's a r I don't know if it's just that there's restraint or it was imposed on them because the technology hadn't developed enough yet. But when you see, you know, flying into
Jett Loe (31:01.912)
Yes.
Gareth (31:13.438)
drowned Manhattan. And you know, this film famously came out in June of 2001. And there are images of the Twin Towers that have been damaged through the climate apocalypse and three months later the skyline had that they had disappeared from the skyline, of course. Really interesting to me that they haven't been like digitally removed after the fact I always thought that was that was an
a a strange choice that Scorsese made at the end of Gangs in New York, a film that was finished after nine eleven. And you remember that the last image of of Gangs in New York is the New York skyline and how it has changed over the I don't know, 130 years or 150 years since since the film the film's setting and he chose to end it with the Twin Towers intact. That felt like a really strange decision that that I can understand a New Yorker feeling like they they
Jett Loe (32:04.92)
Well he's a New Yorker and when people go he's a New Yorker, you know.
Gareth (32:11.228)
You know, yeah, that it that it would be more distressing. But I also thought there's there's there's an argument for saying show the disappearance of the Twin Towers as a way of honoring the truth. Also just remembering not the only time the Twin Towers appear in a Spielberg film to to make an important point for the Munich fans among us. like
I c I mean I could just list wonderful things about this film. I'm not sure that that's that's the the best use of our time, but can we talk about can we talk
Jett Loe (32:37.422)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (32:43.83)
fact that it turns into the running man at one point. It becomes the running man. It become like Swarchinger's running man. And it's like, I'm talking about the motorcyclist of the flesh fair.
Gareth (32:53.364)
Can we can we talk about
Gareth (32:57.99)
Th can we talk about can we talk about the greatest character in the film?
Jett Loe (32:58.808)
Not not a high point.
Jett Loe (33:03.352)
Chris Rock.
Gareth (33:04.5)
Teddy.
Jett Loe (33:06.242)
Teddy, sure.
Gareth (33:07.934)
Teddy's single focused love of David may be the most committed relationship in any Spielberg film. He seems to love him for I mean, are we a couple of thousand? Yeah, the film takes place over the course of a couple of thousand years, right? Yeah, yeah. that Teddy character is hauntingly beautiful, and you can actually get a mechanical Teddy toy.
Jett Loe (33:23.982)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gareth (33:35.496)
they they s they brought out as a tie in with the there there was actually AI merchandise. Hard hard to believe it.
Jett Loe (33:42.958)
Can you imagine being the marketing folks and you watch, you watch the film, you'll say you see a rough cut. Okay, ooh, we got a new Spielberg, it's gotta have sci-fi, it's gonna be great, we're gonna make a fortune. And then you watch the movie and you're like, we're screwed. That's like when they're trying to market the Dune toys, David Lynch's Dune. It's like everybody wants, everybody wants a Baron Harkonnen action figure. shoot.
Gareth (33:53.468)
Uh-huh.
Gareth (34:07.486)
Couple more things. Couple more things. When when David is praying, gosh, it's gonna make me cry even to talk about it.
Jett Loe (34:08.909)
Yes, sir.
Gareth (34:18.056)
I mean that sequence under the sea, when the little kinda helemotor, whatever they're called, has settled at the bottom of the sea, and the Coney Island Ferris wheel has become detached from its moorings and collapses on top of David. Just one of the most exquisite images in any film. And he's looking at the blue fairy and he's praying, and his prayer is
eventually limited to him just saying please over and over please please please please and he gets his prayer answered he gets his prayer answered there is something hopeful in the fact that these these entities these beings that have that are that we that we meet at the end of the film which people have often confused as aliens or or robots they're actually
The next stage of human evolution. They're who we become. That they answer his prayer. They actually have grace in them. They have generosity in them. They, in the voice of Sir Ben Kingsley, want to give him what he wants. And so maybe that actually, you know, what I said there about the ending of the film being a
Gareth (35:43.782)
It's not cheesy and sentimental, but it's not entirely tragic either. The end the ending of this film is is is is kind of an assertion that what humans could evolve toward is utterly benign and utterly generous.
Jett Loe (35:58.478)
Could I stop you stop you there? Because when you're saying what humans can evolve to you're talking about humans' offspring as machines, because they're not human beings, they're the machines that are evolved, right? Yeah. Because no, no. No, they're the No.
Gareth (36:06.344)
They're they're they're what replace us. They're they're what they're not a they're not aliens, though that I mean I think a lot of people thought that they've they've come from out of they're they're what comes next. And that's not to say that that's what should come next. I think they're what comes next if we if i if we don't find ways to
Jett Loe (36:15.426)
The
Well
Gareth (36:26.878)
To discern how to be rather than just let it happen.
Jett Loe (36:32.278)
I think it's very possible that that is what's going to happen. And I would imagine that someone like Kubrick thought that as well. I know he one of his collaborators talked about when she was working with him on his years of development in the film, talked about how, and she she actually, this may have been someone who worked on Eyes Wide Shut, but we were talking about AI AI. I don't recall this time. I'm sorry, Gareth and dear listeners. But she talked about how.
He said explicitly he wanted to create an anti-Frankenstein myth, right? His films are so powerful they change culture, right? Not a week goes by, I don't see a 2001 parody somewhere. And that film's 50 years old, right? He they shifts culture. He wanted to create an anti-Frankenstein myth to say basically it's okay it's okay. It's okay if these are the ones that that come after us. Because if you don't have a problem with humanity being gone, then it's not a tragic ending. Humanity is gone at the end of this film, and and
The machines, an advanced, if you want to use the word advanced, a a evolved, if you want to use that word, evolved version of the machines are the ones that have inherited the earth. And if you're not bothered by that, then I think that we're okay. And the here's the thing. You know, we don't have we think about chatbots right now in AI, we don't have those working inside of really relatively functional
Mechanical machine beings yet, or machines yet, robots that can walk around. No matter what Elon Musk says. But we're getting there. But we're getting there. And we're almost at the point now where you can kind of suspend your disbelief that you're dealing with somebody that's sentient. You know, yesterday I was working, I'm editing a documentary I shot in California a few weeks ago. And one of the cameras I'm using, I was thinking of replacing. And so I asked the chat.
I'm just gonna use the I'm not gonna say which platform, I'll just say the chat generically, right? Because who knows? They're changing constantly. I asked it to compare three different types of cameras, create a table, right, of pros and cons of different features. Actually, I didn't even say pros and cons. Here's here's the different features, like what's their, you know, what what's the bit rate of the, you know, the recording and what file formats and the kind of lens mounts and all that. Three different cameras. And it did that instantly. And then at the bottom, it made some suggestions and it said, you know what?
Jett Loe (38:56.502)
You might be tempted to get this one, but you should get this one because when you're out in the field shooting, you're gonna want to build an ND filter and started making references to my past projects because it had developed the call sheets for this documentary I just shot. So it knew the kind of requirements that I had and how I like to shoot, and unprompted started making recommendations based on what it thinks my creative vision is. So that consciousness, or it's not a consciousness, whatever that is.
Whatever we're gonna call it, maybe we need a new name. It's not implanted in a mechanical boy yet, but boy folks were really close.
Gareth (39:31.892)
So I think I mean everything you're saying's totally totally germane to the film and I I I don't think I am okay with humanity going away and I choose or I I I I prefer to well, you know, if we
Jett Loe (39:37.741)
I hope so.
Jett Loe (39:44.011)
you're very you're attached.
Gareth (39:52.56)
Evolution and
A move toward what Tehart to start on called the Noah Sphere, where there's a kind in its most benign form, the possibility of everybody knowing what they need to know and and understanding life through the eyes of the other. That can only be a good thing. And the role that, you know, quote unquote synthetic technology plays in that is something that needs to be guided with discernment. But I prefer to see the ending of AI as
Not not being literally about what's going to happen to humanity in the future, but about what each of us is invited to do in terms of making peace with the prospect of our own death. And you know, there's the old the old saw of if you knew today, if you if you knew you were going to die today, what would you do with it? There's an interesting philosopher, Roman Karaditch, I think is how you pronounce his name, who says that's it's that's not the most helpful question. It's more helpful to ask if you knew you were gonna die in six months, what would you do?
with today, because if you find out today you're gonna die later on today, you'd probably just go into a panic and you wouldn't be able to prioritize. But to live your life in six-month increments. And if you had the choice, if you knew that the power existed, to spend that day sharing love and being loved, that's a that's a really good way to choose to spend your time. So I guess this conversation
Jett Loe (41:21.486)
Yeah, you wouldn't want to spend it watching that end of Close Encounters where you go inside the ship.
Gareth (41:25.62)
Yeah, yeah, just watching the light on Richard Dreyfus's face. I I I I I hope that I mean frankly, my all my struggles in life are about am I gonna choose to share love or am I gonna choose separatism, selfishness and scapegoating? I don't know about you yet, but I when I when I get when I slow down enough to get conscious, I realize that's what I'm being faced with every single day. Are you gonna choose separatism, selfishness and scapegoating?
Or you're going to choose to share love. And you could say it's cheesy, or you can say that it's that's simply a way one my way of paraphrasing all the wisdom traditions that human beings have have ever evolved. It isn't clearer than that to me. And this film, as with many films that we discuss on the film talk, I'm kind of changing my perspective on on what it means to me now. I don't think it's as tragic an ending as I thought before. It's about
What would happen if he if he knew you had what what would you, what could you choose if you had one day left? And he chooses to give himself to the experience of becoming more alive.
Gareth (42:38.994)
And given that this is our last episode in the Spielbergen rotation, what will we choose to do with the last few moments of this episode?
Episode three hundred and forty two. Is three hundred and forty two numerologically significant? Dear listener, if you are a numerologist and you believe that three hundred and forty-two is numer numerologically significant, please let us know.
Jett Loe (42:54.414)
I th I think e every num every number is n every number is numero numerologically significant. That's why they call it numerology.
Gareth (43:04.956)
It's like I once when when I was when I was a child, there was a TV show, I think it was called Why Don't You? It was this cool show where where kids like learned how to make things together. And I remember in one episode, one of the kids said, they discovered this great revelation. They said, Did you know that if you get a a map of the world and you get a ruler, you can draw a straight line between Belfast and any other capital city in the world? Isn't that amazing?
Every number is num numerologically significant.
Jett Loe (43:32.78)
all connec we're all connected. We're all connected. Even even if it's with a by a child's ruler. last thing I'd say about AI.
Gareth (43:40.85)
You can draw a straight line between any city and any other city. Yes.
Jett Loe (43:44.236)
Yes, you can. Or any three cities you can draw a circle between any three cities as well. Mind blown. Yes, you can. Between any three cities you can. You can draw a circle. yeah, you y work it out. Nope. There you can draw a circle. yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gareth (43:49.02)
necessarily a circle, not necessarily a circle. Maybe an O.
Gareth (43:56.711)
It might be more like an oval. Might be more like an oval. A perfect circle? Let's spend the next forty minutes arguing about this. That's what I would do if I knew I had one day left to live.
Jett Loe (44:09.29)
I'm I'm feeling like I'm I don't have much time left here. The show's gonna start dragging on here. You know, can I say one thing about AI that does make because we haven't we didn't talk too much about this the the Kubrick aspect of it, which is one of the things that makes it so unusual, is that because Kubrick had worked on it so long and it had I think we talked about in a previous episode, how I did that short documentary series. I think I did six of them called Scene back in early two thousands, and we interviewed was it Chris Fenzett Fangborn, Chris F
Gareth (44:17.256)
Yeah can.
Jett Loe (44:37.55)
the the artist who you know did all that work on on AI, all the all the sketches. But one of the fun things about watching AI AI. Yeah, he does, yeah. Yeah. What was it Fangborn? something like that. Fangorn. But one of the one of the fun things about the film the film is to me is very melancholy and it has a very it's very uneasy throughout much of it. But one of the fun things is all the Easter eggs if you want to use that. More of the homages to Kubrick, right? We have the
Gareth (44:40.201)
Yes.
Who has he goes by a pseudonym, doesn't he? He goes by a pseudonym. Do you remember the pseudonym?
I don't know.
Jett Loe (45:04.043)
The overhead lighting from the war room in Doctor Strangelove is the lighting in the ki the kitchen table. There's a shot out of Clockwork Orange of the of the kids riding to Rouge City, going into the tunnels out of Clockwork Orange. And one of the things I noticed, and the the film is sprinkled with these folks. And one of the the that's so it's kind of fun to watch from from that point of view of someone paying tribute to Kubrick. And I caught a new one on the last rewatch last week. When David has this horrifying scene of eating spinach, his face starts to melt, and his dad tries to stop him. And you know what he says to him? He says,
Gareth (45:09.128)
Mm-hmm.
Going s going into the tunnel. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gareth (45:29.786)
Mm. Mm.
Jett Loe (45:33.998)
Stop, David. Will you stop, David? It's he's saying he's doing he's doing the Hell 9000. I'm like, my God. And the film is full of that and that's a lot of fun.
Gareth (45:35.55)
Ha ha.
Gareth (45:41.524)
Well well and I also I I noticed in watching Close Encounters the scene where
Lacombe, Truffaut's character and Bob Balaban's character, the the translator, are gently interrogating Roy Neary. And there's a shot where Balaban and Truffaut are in close-up. Neary's at the back, and it's I was gonna say homage. It's a it's an absolute delicious, friendly ripoff of the scene in 2001 where Bowman and Poole are talking to each other thinking that.
Jett Loe (46:09.944)
To lift. Yeah, it's a rip off.
Gareth (46:18.44)
That Hal can't understand what they're saying because Truffaut has decided to speak in French to Balaban, which of course, you know, Roy doesn't understand, but just it just a gorgeous little grace note there. Okay, so I have a question for you as as we come as we come thunderously toward the end of our our Spielberg sojourn. what what do you think of Steven Spielberg?
Jett Loe (46:33.036)
I'm here to answer all questions.
Jett Loe (46:45.58)
As a filmmaker, 'cause we haven't even gone into we've been r doing all these rankings, which is absurd to apply metric star. We haven't even talked about his collaboration with John Williams. I mean, it's just ridiculous that we've just barely s
Gareth (46:46.708)
Mm.
Gareth (46:54.078)
Did you see did you see what the the footage of John Williams from the night before last at I think at the Hollywood Bowl? Wonderful. They did a big tribute to John Williams and and he and he he made a surprise appearance at at the end. He was wheeled on in a wheelchair. They they they they they kind of put the br they put the brakes on the on the wheelchair, had him facing the audience. They gave him a baton and he and he conducted the Imperial March at the end and
Jett Loe (47:00.857)
I well that's great. Well, still with us.
Jett Loe (47:10.08)
Wheel on. Give him a bat did they give him a baton?
Jett Loe (47:23.15)
Well, that's fitting.
Gareth (47:25.502)
For what?
Jett Loe (47:26.19)
Our current situation.
Gareth (47:28.596)
Well, he seemed to get a lot of joy out of it, as did the audience.
Jett Loe (47:34.102)
What did that sounds one I would would love to have been there. What do I th did you ask me what I what do I think about Spielberg as what as a as a filmmaker? We doing ranking of is he up there with with Hitchcock? Is that what we're is that what we're talking about here or or Berg Bergman? Yes, of course. Yeah.
Gareth (47:39.581)
Yeah.
Gareth (47:48.401)
Of course he's up there with Hitchcock. The the only reason, the only reason that anybody, I should no, don't be ridiculous, Gareth. Like the the I think the reason why he doesn't have in the in the public mind the reputation of being a great artist is simply because he's popular. There's nothing in the in the content or substance of the films that should detract from the notion that he's one of the greatest filmmakers.
there's ever been, although I d I'm not really you know, neither is particularly interested, ironically, in the ranking thing. I just think this this is a wonderful storyteller who has advanced the medium. He's been d doing this for over fifty years. There aren't a lot of Spielberg films left coming down the the Pike. I think we should treasure them while we while we have them.
Jett Loe (48:41.228)
The thing is, but also keeping in mind you talk about how people regard him, and I don't think he's regarded because filmmaking isn't the primary art form of our time anymore. Hitchcock passed away when films were still a primary art form. And, you know, like the the kids today, yeah, maybe you'll go see Obsession or Backroom, what have you, but it's not a primary art form, whereas more for them it's gaming, right? Just like novels aren't the primary art form anymore. It's more we're it's it's it's in the mix and maybe we don't have a primary art form like we did in in earlier days. So Spielberg sp Spielberg is
Gareth (48:51.314)
Yeah, yeah.
Gareth (48:57.769)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (49:07.878)
I think it's I think it's two two guys talking about movie podcasts are the primary art for
Jett Loe (49:14.434)
Where do we rank? So the the th so you know you can put that into context, but who cares? What does that matter? Let's go ahead 200 years. Yeah, in a couple of j just just, you know, that's it, man. Guys, gals, everybody's, whoever you you are out there, just love one another and and make some art today. It doesn't have to be a compulsion. It has to be something that you feel. Is it making things better? Is it making you better? Then do it.
Gareth (49:15.932)
Mun
Gareth (49:20.998)
No. Just do good work. Just do good work and share love.
Jett Loe (49:43.202)
Make that art. That's all I've gotta say. Thank you for listening, folks. Three hundred and forty two episodes of this business. I've been Jet Low.
Gareth (49:51.666)
I've been Gareth Higgins. We'll keep talking.
Jett Loe (49:55.49)
Next time.