One host saw Avatar: Fire and Ash in IMAX 3D. One did not. What follows is TFT’s most divided conversation of the year and a useful experiment in what spectacle actually does: is Avatar a movie, an experience, or something that fundamentally changes when the screen gets smaller? Reconciliation remains uncertain.
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Jett Loe (01:15.77)
peel back the curtain. We don't pull it back. I guess you don't peel, you pull. We don't pull back the curtain to what's going on in our personal lives. But folks, dear listeners, Gareth and I hardly, wait, hold on Gareth, Gareth and I hardly ever talk on the, know, peeling and pulling. That was a terrible 70s British sitcom, wasn't it? Peeling and pulling. Anyway, it was a spin-off of that, what was it that show that took, yes, Letter-O-Rossiter.
Gareth (01:26.03)
I'm stuck on peeling and pulling.
Gareth (01:40.216)
The Joan Collins and Leonard Rossiter...Chinzano ads? What's it? Chinzano? Yes, okay. Alright.
Jett Loe (01:45.18)
Something like that. This is getting way into the weeds. Hold on, hold on here, hold on. Here's what I'm pulling back the curtain. Gareth and I almost never speak on the phone. We speak on the show and then we text each other. The only reason we ever call each other is like maybe there's been some terrible tragedy, there's a death in the family. But after I saw Avatar, Colin, Fire and Ash, I immediately got to my car and I called Gareth frantically. There was a reason I called him about the film. I will not reveal it right now to the listeners. This is what I call a teaser.
Gareth (01:49.934)
Yes.
Gareth (02:13.902)
A teaser indeed. I'm still feeling teased. The teasing unfolded and within, perhaps not within minutes, but certainly within hours, I went to see Avatar Fire and Ash and I'm looking forward to talking about it today on the show.
Jett Loe (02:20.591)
Got peeled back.
Jett Loe (02:30.477)
If only we could talk about the same movie. Let's get right into it.
Gareth (02:35.854)
Okay, I want you to bear with me for what I'm about to do, okay? All right.
Jett Loe (02:37.935)
Yes, sir. OK.
Gareth (02:44.408)
Why don't you do the hello and say your name and so on?
Jett Loe (02:48.207)
Hey there, hey there, folks, welcome back. Once again, it's the Film Talk. I'm Jet Low.
Gareth (02:50.399)
Bye!
Gareth (02:54.958)
I'm Gareth Higgins, the conversation never ends. We're here talking now. We're about to enter our 20th year, our 20th year of talking to each other. 11 of those years, 11 of those years, we've been talking with you, dear listener. I like to think that it's with you and not to you, but I hope you'll enjoy the show.
Jett Loe (03:04.398)
Every year a joy.
Jett Loe (03:12.955)
Yes.
Gareth (03:18.314)
I am delighted to say, I'm delighted to say, Jet, that James Cameron has made a truly magnificent, epic film. It takes place largely underwater. It focuses on the struggle of a ragtag bunch of people from different ethnic backgrounds using a combination of learned skills, heart-centered emotion. And I guess you could probably call it spiritual intuition to save the world. There are glorious blues and purple hues. There's a fluidity of motion.
that I believe they, I think they invented new cameras to be able to capture this fluidity of motion. A wonderful cast right down to the smallest supporting roles. And indeed some of the actors had to learn deep sea breathing techniques to be able to survive down there. Which is in itself a kind of a poetic physiological mirroring of the ethical heart of the film, which is about our place in the ecosystem and whether or not we will honor.
Jett Loe (04:10.043)
Sure.
Gareth (04:13.547)
or degrade it. There's a bad guy working for the system who goes slightly crazy and falls to his death. There's a steely female lead who mingles heart with the willingness to cut through ambiguity. There's a man at the center of it all who is learning to embrace what might be called conventionally his feminine side. And there's even a scene where one character is willing to die in order, effectively, to save the human race from its own selfishness. All that in around three hours of
narrative intercut with the grace notes of exquisite marine scape photography, character beats that make you truly care for the people at the center of the story and that in itself manages to reverse magnify for this story is not just about its principal dramatist personae but it's about us. In fact we are the heart. We are the heart. We are the heart. I care about the listener enough whenever I've got something to say I want to make sure I say it well and I'm nearly finished.
Jett Loe (04:59.387)
Have you written this out? Are you reading this?
Gareth (05:09.321)
We are at the heart of this story as heroes and villains, protagonists and recipients, hoping against hope that we can play a part in the resolution of what seems both like ancient conflict and brand new threats. To top it all, to top it all, Jett, this film looks so, this film looks so great that I could, that I could, that I could watch any scene of it any day of the week for the rest of my life and not exhausted. Of course, dear listener, I'm talking about the recent 4K restoration of the Abyss.
Jett Loe (05:24.091)
Yes.
Jett Loe (05:27.843)
And Michael Bean is great in it.
Gareth (05:37.901)
which is available to right now. And if you don't have an IMAX 3D theater near you, I would recommend that you do indeed stream the 4K restoration of the Abyss. I don't believe we have a clip of that, but I do believe we have a clip of Avatar Fire and Ash.
Jett Loe (05:56.23)
We do and thank you for that. That was a little twist there, a little twist that you're talking about the Abyss, which is an extraordinary film. You know what else is extraordinary? Avatar, Cole, and Fire and Ash. And I'm gonna reveal now, dear listener, the phone call. While I watched Avatar, and Fire and Ash, I saw in a Hugh Dymak's theater in the prime spot. I know exactly where I wanna sit to get that, you know, where it fills your frame, fills your peripheral vision. Incredible sound, 3D.
Gareth (06:05.963)
Hehehehehe
Jett Loe (06:23.899)
In the first few moments of Avatar, Cole and Fire and Ash, there's a scene one of the character's spider. He's wearing a breathing mask because, you know, humans can't breathe the air of the planet Pandora. And the masks have a little like heads up display. It's like little luminescent green, what have you, on the surface of the mask. And the 3D was so good that you, the effect was almost so profound, just seeing how the HUD was only an inch away from his face that I actually gasped.
And this wasn't even an action scene. This was just right at the beginning of the 3D. The 3D in this film, in the IMAX version that I saw with a high frame rate, that's 48 frames per second versus the ordinary 24, was so extraordinary. It was on a magnitude many times beyond any 3D presentation I've seen. You actually felt like you were there. And I realized this effect was so good.
in the theater I said, no, I wonder if Gareth, where he is, because Gareth's always traveling, he's a very worldly man, he may not be able to see it in 3D. So I called you on the phone, almost imploring you, please don't see the film until you can see it in IMAX in 3D, because you're probably gonna have a bad time. This film is meant to be seen in this incredible, glorious format. I have now since found out you didn't, you saw it like on a Zune or somebody's old Windows XP computer, you didn't see it in 3D. So I'm just.
Gareth (07:38.667)
I saw it on probably one of the largest local screens, but it wasn't IMAX or fake IMAX, and it wasn't in 3D, but it did have the high frame rate thing. Did have the high frame rate thing.
Jett Loe (07:40.163)
I'm just saying we're talking about, yeah.
Jett Loe (07:47.898)
and wasn't in 3D. Yeah, okay, fine. So my point here is that we're talking about two different films because talking to different friends of mine who've seen it 3D and who haven't, they have totally different experiences. I will say, I'm gonna introduce a clip, but let me tell you, for me, visually this film was extraordinary, just as much as Train Dreams, if not more so because the 3D was so good, you're in this world and we'll talk about it. So for me, even looking at stills now,
stills of the female antagonist, Varang, for instance, brings back incredible memories of her strutting through fire. But we got a clip here. In this clip, I don't know, I Gareth hasn't described it, but Avatar, Fire and Ash. You know the drill, folks, it's an Avatar movie. We don't need to describe it. It's Avataring. Everybody's Avataring over there in Pandora. In this clip, one of our...
antagonist, the clone of Quaritch from the first film, the wonderful Stephen Lang who I think originated the You Can't Handle the Truth character, a few good men, but he originated on stage. Wonderful actor, man you can do great brutality, great sensitivity. was great in last exit to Brooklyn. He's great in Manhunter. Here he's the evil clone of the evil Colonel Quaritch. He's trying to convince the leader of this very dangerous alien tribe that...
Gareth (08:45.823)
On stage? Huh.
Jett Loe (09:05.633)
She should help him and he's going to offer her weapons. They're in her tent. Let's listen in.
Jett Loe (09:13.779)
Whenever you're ready.
Gareth (09:16.301)
That is Avatar, Fire and Ash. I think, Jett, obviously you make a really important point here and that is you feel like you saw a different film to me. Now at one level, I think that's self-evidently true. IMAX 3D, shot for IMAX 3D by a visual stylist of the, you've used the word already, extraordinary talent.
of James Cameron is going to feel radically different from seeing it in any other format. And I will go to see it in IMAX in 3D. I'll do that because of your passionate advocacy for it. Part of the reason I opened with the kind of description of the plot of the Abyss is because there are so many plot points in Fire and Ash that are identical.
Jett Loe (09:57.381)
Thank you.
Thank you. God bless you, sir.
Gareth (10:16.556)
to those in the the the abyss interrupt away interrupt away
Jett Loe (10:17.239)
How about, I'm gonna keep interrupting you here. I am so sorry. I am so sorry. But even shots, right? The climactic shot of the abyss with the soaring James Horne movement music is reproduced here that instead of the alien ship coming out of the water, there are whales. And the whales are even shaped. The whales are shaped the same as this, Yeah, yes.
Gareth (10:29.036)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (10:33.866)
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. They feel like they're the same color and they feel like the same texture. No, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. Van Morrison's been excavating the same seams, I guess, is the term, for nearly 60 years. Philip Glass has spoken about how a mentor of his asked him, do you want to get really, really, really, really good at one thing, or do you want to be basically competent at a lot of things? And what people, listening to Philip Glass's...
music often think is unnecessarily repetitious might actually just be contemplative and going deep down into the depths of what's possible there. So I don't object to a filmmaker repeating themselves or repeating the same themes. What bothered me about Fire and Ash, having loved the first Avatar, really liked the second one. And clearly I'm an enormous fan of the Abyss. The Abyss for me is probably the...
the best fusion of action cinema with ideas that I can think of that manages to be both a tiny love story about two individuals and the story of the entire human race. Right. That's a great thing to aim for. the abyss the abyss incarnates that magnificently. So I'm not an anti-Cameronian. I'm not going to knock it just because it's big and just because it's successful.
But the lack of narrative propulsion in this film, the lack of what felt like, what could feel to me like credible storytelling beats, the frequency with which I looked at my watch jet, I never do that. I get you, I get you. And we are talking about two different experiences here and I am gonna ask you a question about your experience. And I've already said I will go and see it in...
Jett Loe (12:18.543)
Never did it once. I never did it once.
Gareth (12:31.134)
and what seems to be the best way to see it. I was pretty astonished by how an hour into the thing, I was dreading the next two hours because I was just bored. And one of the reasons was around this lack of narrative drive. just felt like it's one scene after another with few consequences for the things that happened in the last scene. mean, the scene evoking
the story in the Bible of Abraham believing that he needs to sacrifice Isaac in order to please God. There's a scene that evokes that and it's dramatic and you're not quite sure what's actually going to happen. And then in the immediate aftermath, there is no trauma consequences for the child whose father has just threatened to kill him with a knife. There's nothing that happens.
that would be emotionally aligned with that experience. Hold on, please. Hold on, hold on. I wanna, all right.
Jett Loe (13:29.819)
But here's, wait, wait, wait, no, I gotta say something. I gotta say something because you're saying nothing that happens because this film is told visually. What happens is, what is the next thing we see is that character sleeping on the back of the woman who had formerly rejected him and wanted him dead. And it's sculpted.
Gareth (13:47.681)
Gotcha. And she says, I'm your, and at the end of movie, she says, I'm your mother. You're not going to be able to get me to buy it just because you bought it, right? I will watch it in IMAX. I almost feel like I'd like to ask you to watch it in NoMax. Because I just didn't feel captivated or compelled in any way. And part of it was the alienating effect. You will understand the technical reasons for this better than I do.
Jett Loe (13:59.738)
Wow.
Jett Loe (14:08.367)
Yeah, No.
Gareth (14:17.056)
I did see it in the format that uses a high frame rate, but that kind of sometimes changes within a scene. And to me, in Flatmax or NoMax or 2D, it looks like I'm watching something through, you know, like in old shops back in Belfast where you and I first met each other.
In old shops, they would have like a back room and they would have like this tinsel curtain rather than a door to go into the back room. You know, the kind of thing I'm talking about sometimes. It's also the backdrop and the enchantment under the sea dance and back to the future. You know the thing I'm talking about? To me, it feels like I'm watching the film through a translucent curtain like that. And it has a deeply alienating effect. I felt like I was watching the best, the best
Jett Loe (14:57.787)
Like my lar.
Gareth (15:14.252)
quality photography of a soap opera from the 1980s. Now, maybe I'll feel differently about it when I see the large format version. Even if I do, that will point to a problem because if this really is the greatest, I'm sorry, that sounds like I'm doubting you. Of course what you say about it, of course it will look extraordinary in iMacs 3D. But given that that's the case, most of the people
who will see this film are not going to see that one, partly because those screenings are rare and partly because those screenings are more expensive. And I am able to go and see them because of the film talk and because I can afford to. There's something that needs to be talked about if the thing that you saw is not the thing that is available to most people. And if the thing that is available to most people
doesn't have a narrative. And one thing after another just doesn't feel like they joined together. And I felt lost and bored, which is a huge disappointment to me. I will say I'll walk this back if I like it in IMAX. But it won't be walking it back, because if I see it in IMAX 3D, it will not be the same thing that I saw.
Jett Loe (16:36.055)
I think absolutely not because all the things you point out are the inverse of what I experienced. did not, I only checked my watch once and that's because I had an intuition about something and I turned out to be right and I'll tell you what that is. And it's a very funny joke actually about the nature of long films. And you may know what I'm talking about here, the nature of people wanting an intermission and stuff. I to use the bathroom. But the...
Gareth (16:41.345)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (16:49.004)
Okay.
Jett Loe (16:57.595)
I didn't have that experience at all, right? And we've already established that. I didn't check my watch. I saw it at 9.30 in the morning. It was a sold out IMAX crowd. They were laughing. They were cheering. They were applauding. They applauded at end. People laughed at the jokes. Everybody was there. Of course, self-selecting. Who's going to go see Avatar, Cole, and Fire and Ash? 9.30 in the morning, right? In IMAX. I was absolutely drawn into the narrative. Everything worked because I was in that environment when there's a scene where, or a section of film where Jake Scully is captured.
Gareth (17:22.749)
Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (17:27.549)
mostly a high frame rate, and you feel like you're there. And the effect is so sculptural and real, you felt like you were on an alien planet with a whole bunch of other workers looking at almost in a dystopian nightmare come to life. And you know, when think about high frame rate, that's where again, 48 frames per second or 60 depending, rather than 24. And the failure of it, like Peter Jackson's The Hobbit, right? Because it's shot at a high frame rate and made everything look cheap.
because looked like you're at a stage set. Didn't matter how much you did on wardrobe and makeup and everything else because it was designed for people working 24 frames per second. Cameron is such an innovator, he realizes this. And because it's all generated in the computer, you can make the resolution look as realistic as you want. So when the high frame rate happens, you do feel like you're there. It doesn't feel fake. And the effect, as I've said before already, is extraordinary. So I'm very sad to hear that you had that experience. And we are talking about two different things. I will say the one time I checked my watch.
Because going into this film is three hours and 20 minutes long. So I was telling people like, man, why not just put an intermission? Is there a contractual reason why you can't deliver the film with an intermission or theater owners gonna bulk?
Halfway into the film, I checked my watch, I said, is he gonna do something here? And he does. Do you know what I'm talking about, Gareth? The screen goes to black and then it cuts back in after. This is where an intermission should be. And then what does he have a character do? The character goes, we gotta land anywhere. And the character goes, says, I really gotta pee. And he goes out and he starts peeing while there's a river creek babbling water sounds in front of you. And I looked around and that's when people got up to pee. He built into the film.
Gareth (18:46.507)
Yeah, I thought, I was like, this is where an intermission would be if there was gonna be one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gareth (18:57.411)
yes. That's right. That's right.
Yes, yes.
Jett Loe (19:09.869)
a pee break without doing an admission. And it's a fun joke and it's very playful. And that playfulness in the version that I saw is throughout the entire film. The whole film felt very playful, very inviting. I liked it so much more than the last one. And one of the reasons, and it's obvious in retrospect, that they were probably, it seems like they were shot together, right? They shot two and three together, much like the Lord of the Rings films. So all the things, I didn't really care about the characters in the last one.
Gareth (19:31.563)
Mm-hmm.
Ahem.
Jett Loe (19:36.922)
because all the head, all these sort of open story lines and who are these people? All that is satisfied with this one. So all the open character arcs from the first film are then resolved here because they're designed, they're basically part one and part two. the first one I'm like, wait, who's this Sigourney Weaver character? I mean, it's technically extraordinary that you have, you can take someone that's older and have them play a younger character through motion capture. Who is she? How is she? Virgin birth? And then that's resolved here leading to another mystery. So all those things really, really worked. And of course,
Gareth (19:51.915)
Hehehehe
Jett Loe (20:05.069)
Any film that has unexpected David Thullis is a winner in my book. didn't know anything about this movie going in.
Gareth (20:11.651)
Bidden or unbidden, always welcome.
Jett Loe (20:16.037)
Thulis, always welcome. Can I just talk about a couple of the other things that to me were really extraordinary about? I've already said that visually. Yes.
Gareth (20:22.931)
Yes, please, but please, yes you can, but please talk about them in IMAX 3D.
Jett Loe (20:29.179)
Do you feel like you're getting, dear listener, the 3D effect? I can go closer to the microphone. Farther away, closer, farther away. You know, I don't remember much of the last Avatar film. This one, the visuals, the 3D is so strong that it's just imprinted on myself. Just one amazing shot after another. And even looking at the stills, looking at the character designs are just unbelievable. There's a female protagonist or antagonist called Varang. And again, I don't know what it was like in your Nomax.
Gareth (20:32.085)
Let me put the glasses on. Let me put the, I can hear you better now.
Jett Loe (20:59.115)
in the IMAX 3D, she is extraordinary. You can feel the audience just tense up every time she's on screen. She, no pun intended for a film with word fire in it. She burns up the screen and you look at the incredible attention to detail. You know, these characters like bioluminescent, they glow in the dark and then you realize she has scarification. She has burnt out with scarification, her luminescence because she rejects sort of the mother goddess.
character of what is it Enya who is it is it Enya? Aewa, Aewa, Aewa, Aewa.
Gareth (21:31.389)
Iowa Iowa see I was listening I was listening. Iowa was like if you couldn't afford a Sony Walkman you had an Iowa Walkman.
Jett Loe (21:39.279)
you would get an ewa to listen to your enya on while you're thinking about ewa.
Gareth (21:43.825)
I Anya was posed anywhere.
Jett Loe (21:48.201)
It was supposed to end here.
Gareth (21:49.671)
Enya was post Ewa, Ewa was pre Enya.
Jett Loe (21:51.292)
You lost me. I'm not that bright. could we talk about AOA for a second here? Because I mean, I have. That's what happens.
Gareth (21:56.686)
You've burned out your luminescence.
I think, and I think the listener would agree, your luminescence has been renewing itself.
Jett Loe (22:06.255)
talking about this extraordinary film. Yes, absolutely. You know, here's the thing about, let me tell you about the old James Cameron. I remember, we talked about this, the old James Cameron. We talked about this and, hold on, keep on track, come on now. We owe it to the listeners.
Gareth (22:14.047)
The old James Cameron, okay. I remember Don't... Sorry.
Gareth (22:22.687)
Sitting on the dog of the bay with James Cameron, mulling about the old times.
Jett Loe (22:25.741)
I said, little Jimmy, little Jimmy gonna go far. Okay, you know, in the old show we talked about this, I always wondered watching Cameron's films, why he has the obsession with almost like exosuits or machines with mechanical arms. We talked about that, right? Because he did a short film in 78 called Exogenesis, which has like a machine you walk into that has big arms. Obviously the Terminator is a kind of like a...
Gareth (22:41.663)
Yeah.
Gareth (22:50.559)
He's obviously got very, he's got very high shelves in his house.
Jett Loe (22:54.287)
That's, wow, the comedy hits keep on coming. In The Terminator, you've got like a metal man and aliens. Hold on, hold on, hold on. All right, we're gonna talk about the comedy in Avatar, and Fire in Ashen Second. But like the...
Gareth (23:00.139)
It's making me laugh. It's making me laugh, which is more than Avatar did. All right, yes.
Gareth (23:09.831)
I did. laughed a couple of times, but nobody else in the audience I was with laughed. Yeah, five people walked out. It's I mean, I think it's genuinely interesting. It's genuinely interesting. This piece about there appear to be two entirely different experiences available, but one of them is rare and expensive.
Jett Loe (23:14.091)
We had very different experiences. People were cheering and laughing throughout the three hour 20 minutes. Okay, well I'm...
Jett Loe (23:29.925)
Well, question, yes, you can, the first, I don't wanna use the word knee-jerk, because it's pejorative, and you've derailed me on my thing about the exoskeleton, which I'm gonna get back to. But yeah, you could say, well, of course, maybe as a baseline, the film should work in a format that's gonna work for the most people, and then you get the extra added for the 3D, but that's not what this guy's doing. This is his own, you know, his own project. He's an artist, and he's made the thing that he wants to make.
and he's able to justify it to the people giving money by saying, also those are be ancillary revenue from the 2D projections, right? But this, the 3D thing is what he wants to do. So I don't have a problem with that, but it is sort of like if you go see Cirque du Soleil or something like that, that's 3D and sculptural, and then you compare that experience to say watching it on a old VHS tape on your screen. But anyway, I just wanna get back to, I wanna get your take on this. I wanna get, so he did.
Gareth (24:20.488)
Back to exogenesis.
Jett Loe (24:24.603)
He did the power loader in Aliens. You got those little subs in the Abyss that have claws. There's the exosuits. And I always wondered, I think we talked about this in the old show, like why is he obsessed with this? And then I read some interview where he said as a kid, he watched 2001 20 times in the theater. And then it makes sense because think about the pods in 2001, which have those grappling hooks and.
Gareth (24:44.586)
When Bowman goes to try to rescue Poole.
Jett Loe (24:50.777)
That's right and then you actually see a murder with these words implied with the claws. It made such an impact on him and I thought of that of course because throughout this movie there's a little teaser where the Sigourney Weaver character is trying to reach or communicate with the goddess whether it's Awa, Enya, whatever it's called, the god, the great mother character. And I'm watching this, I'm saying how?
Gareth (24:53.93)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (25:16.315)
How is he gonna resolve this? What's the answer gonna be? Because it's sort of an unsurmountable, like how do you show the ineffable? How do you show that which can't be seen? And I remember when I watched the first average hour, maybe we talked about this, I kind of wondered is AWA like a computer program? Is that gonna be a twist later down the line that it's some sort of like computer network or there's gonna be, or they're gonna go to earth and that's gonna be Gaia and they're gonna network together. That's kind of cheesy, whatever, fine. How are they gonna show AWA? And spoilers folks, really you shouldn't listen to this until you've seen the film. What I did not expect, but should have.
knowing that as a child, he saw 2001 20 times is that we would get the star child from 2001 at the end of this movie. And I was like, oh my God, he's doing the star child. that just, makes, you know, as a huge fan of 2001, that just warms my, it really does warm my heart.
Gareth (25:53.276)
yeah, yeah, the mother, I know, yes.
Gareth (26:05.162)
Is that, I'm actually wondering, know, like, and I really can't really mean this with kindness and even affection, parasocial affection, I guess, never having met James Cameron. You know, they talk about so many of the Marvel movies and some of the more recent Star Wars movies are so overloaded with what they call fan service that it has this alienating effect. You're just watching trinkets that are being placed there.
So fans can say, oh, I saw that. And they can turn to the person next to him and say, hey, did you see that? The appearance of the star child in the form of the mother. What do we say her name is? Awa? Awa? Awa? What I was going to say was like, he's doing fan service to himself. I know what I mean. I know, I mean that with
Jett Loe (26:37.339)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (26:48.825)
Let me tell you about multi-level marketing program, A-Way. With A-Way, you start at the bottom, but you quickly work your way up.
Jett Loe (26:59.355)
Gareth (27:04.042)
with affection, he's having fun here. And I guess, I guess there's a, you know, your point about what he's doing is the advanced form, which happens to be rare and expensive. It's a little bit like, and I mean this in all seriousness, do remember when iPhones first came on the market, people were surprised. I remember I was surprised when I opened my first iPhone box and saw that there wasn't a case.
Jett Loe (27:08.035)
He absolutely, yes.
Gareth (27:34.227)
inside it. And it was the first object of that kind that had not come with a case that Apple was not going to produce that case for you. Other people would have to be well, you could buy a case from Apple, you could buy a case from all kinds of other people. And then items that get delivered without a plug to put the charger cable into, or even without the cable itself. So I think it seems to me it's the same principle around technological advancement.
I still sit with some, I think, discomfort around the fact that most people are not going to be made aware that they're not seeing the thing that was made the way it was made. they may like the literally five people in the row I was sitting in left the movie early the other night. And they may not have done that if they had been at the version you were at.
Jett Loe (28:35.225)
Well, mean, what are we okay?
Gareth (28:35.698)
And I will report back, I will report back when I see the version that you saw.
Jett Loe (28:39.515)
What are we talking about? Is the responsibility of the marketing campaign to say, you have to see this in 3D? I think... Yes, go ahead.
Gareth (28:47.038)
I think, no, I think that if the storytelling doesn't work, if the storytelling doesn't work in NoMax, and if it is substantially more expensive and harder to get to see the IMAX 3D version, there's just something worth commenting on there. I think it's a little bit like, you know, lot of trailers end with only in theaters. And a lot of people don't realize it's effectively deceptive marketing because some people
we'll read that and think, there's no way I'm going to be able to watch it at home. Of course, it's a way to get people into the theaters. That's great. I want to get people in the theaters. I want theaters to survive. But at one level, it's not telling the truth.
Jett Loe (29:27.899)
Well they're operating within the reality, right? I'm sure this is playing in every single available IMAX 3D film, 3D venue.
Gareth (29:34.634)
Sure. Sure. And there will be more IMAX theaters built if it's successful. Sure.
Jett Loe (29:40.092)
And this is the thing that he wanted to make, which was a transportive piece of cinema that places you within an environment. That's the reality of that. And again, you can justify by saying, well, it's also going to be in these other markets, and it's going to be available on streaming. And we call it Sell-o-Blu-ray. And here's how we.
get the money together to make this thing that I wanna make, be it James Cameron. So I don't have a problem with that. I don't wanna do a straw man here. have something in posters in the movie that are saying, don't see this version, it's gonna be crappy. But I can't address, you say it doesn't work in 2D. You say it doesn't work in 2D and I can't address that because for me it was an immersive thing. I don't know. I don't wanna see this piece of crap in 2D.
Gareth (30:17.179)
I just think it's an intre... I think it's an interesting question. No.
Gareth (30:26.058)
So go see it in two days.
Dear listener
Gareth (30:40.36)
in the week that's in it, in the tradition that I'm from. It's goodwill to all people. because of that, I'll go see this. I was gonna say I'll go see this movie again, but, as far as you're concerned, I would not be seeing it again. I'd be seeing it for the first time.
Jett Loe (30:57.883)
You got to see it in IMAX. I don't know how you get to where you are, but see it in IMAX 3D like a proper IMAX cinema with the proper, there's different kinds of 3D, see it with the proper 3D. mean, there's all sorts of things that work for me in this picture aside just from the 3D thing. You know, I love the fact that the things, two of the things that bother me in the other Avatar pictures were one, that Sam Worthington is a charisma black hole. God bless him.
Gareth (31:00.126)
Yeah, yeah, you know, there's, can...
Gareth (31:05.79)
Yeah.
Jett Loe (31:27.897)
and that his character didn't seem that sharp, right? That bothered me. And also the contemporary slang like the bro and how crass the language is. And in this film, both those things, they turn the weaknesses into a positive for me in the sense that it's made explicitly clear that the character of Jake Scully is not very bright. And you realize he's just an ordinary.
guy, he's not some superhero. And there's a devastating scene in which he basically says to his wife that, know what, you just went for the first white guy that came into your village. It could have been anybody. And that's a really devastating thing. And that had more emotional heart than any of the other Avatar films. And the other thing that was really interesting, again, to talk about the crass language, is that the more extraordinary visually things happen, the more extraordinary adventures they had,
the simpler the language was. And you realize it was almost like you're watching, you ever see Barry Lyndon? In Stanley Kubrick's Barry Lyndon, the character has extraordinary adventures, Barry Redmond, but he's not that smart and he's just an ordinary guy. And these are just ordinary people. think the film actually ends on a line that's like something extraordinary happens and the character goes, wow, look at this shit or no shit or something like that, right? Cause it's the most.
like banal thing and here it really works because these are just ordinary people in an extraordinary situation. So I thought that was quite well done. Can we just say one thing to you know about this Varang character played by Una Chaplin? Cameron is famous for a strong female protagonist, right? Sarah Connor, Ripley in Aliens, the character played by Mary Elizabeth Mastro Antonio in The Abyss, Jamie Lee Curtis coming to her own in True Lies. But watching this, I realized, he's never done.
a strong female antagonist. And in this, again, in this 3D version, she was extraordinary. The beautiful rendering, the wardrobe, how they animated her own performance was no pun intended out of this world. Avatar, Cole and Fire and Ash, go see it in 3D. Any last thoughts? Last thoughts?
Gareth (33:16.819)
Villain, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gareth (33:36.178)
Well, a really important thought because we've put up a bonus episode of our original review of Avatar the first part and I haven't listened to it yet. sure. So I deliberately didn't listen to it before we recorded this episode. We do need to talk about the ongoing debate regarding the White Savior trope.
in fiction and how Sully is, as you say, he's white. But I think to see him as a white savior is questionable on at least two counts. First of all, he's a white person who's marginalized. He's someone who uses a wheelchair. He's physically paralyzed. And so he does not represent that kind of ubermensch.
thing or supremacist thing that often has been in similar stories. And the second thing, the thing that, so he's a marginalized character. The thing that has, that always gave me pause around Avatar and one of the things I've always liked about it was that, yes, he does help the Navi, he does help the people who have adopted him into their community, but that...
latter comment is the point. They have adopted him into their community. He has literally actually, to the degree that one is able to do, he has become one of these people in order to save his life. They have adopted him. And so that should be part of the conversation. When people talk about this, it's not like... And we do see the friction that comes when his particular values come into collision with...
Jett Loe (35:05.755)
Yes.
Gareth (35:31.177)
So I don't think it's a simple white savior narrative. Anymore Than Dances with Wolves is a simplistic white savior narrative because for one thing, Kevin Costner's character does not save the people that he lives among. He actually brings massive danger into their midst and the only way that he can protect them is for him to leave. So it's not a simple matter.
Jett Loe (35:45.583)
Hey, spoilers. Spoilers for Dances Wolves.
Jett Loe (35:56.156)
Yeah, it's the same, it's very similar storylines in the last couple of these movies.
Gareth (36:04.777)
Well, that led us into a rich philosophical discussion. There's no doubt.
Jett Loe (36:12.453)
Well, for me, there's a bunch of through lines here and themes that are much stronger for me, that work much better for me than in the last film. That being accepted in the community, that's the same thing that happens with the spider character. I love this idea of how does one process trauma when you find out the... know, Varang is one of those antagonists who gives you their backstory, who just tells you what happens to make them who they are.
they felt rejected by their god. They lose their faith and then in the face of losing their faith they turn towards terrible acts. That's really interesting and you know, again, spoilers, she doesn't die at the end so the assumption is we're going to see her in the next one. And I also love the themes that revolve around this Quarraige character. He's much more three-dimensional, no pun intended, in this film and the other ones.
And you feel his loneliness and his need, even though he is a quote unquote bad guy, he is in some deep way incredibly attracted to this meringue character. And there's scenes that echo aliens. They do an inverse of a very famous scene in Aliens where Michael Bean teaches Sigourney Weaver how to use a gun.
Gareth (37:24.893)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (37:34.16)
And again in 3D when their faces light up with flames, it really is extraordinary. But their whole relationship is fascinating in a kind of old-fashioned Western way. There's a line deliberately echoing the Western genre of the mostly of the 50s and up until the mid 60s. And it's very, very clear that the film's aware of overdoing the old cowboy and Indian tropes when the general refers to.
Korich is Cochise and is referencing the old John Ford and Anthony Mann westerns, is great. And also the film has unexpected David Dulles, so there is that.
Gareth (38:13.832)
Unexpected and and and half a spoiler. Cary Sigourney Weaver gets to do a I guess this is a PG 13 film. Is it a PG 13 film? Yeah, I guess it is. Cary.
Jett Loe (38:24.525)
I have no idea. don't think these kind of things apply to cameras.
Gareth (38:28.904)
Kiri gets to do a PG-13 version of a line that Sigourney Weaver speaks at the end of Aliens today. All right, all right. I'll be truthful. I'll be honest. I'll be clean, crisp and clear when I go to see IMAX 3D version of Avatar Fire Nash. I do think, dear listener, you would agree that if I'm going to do that in order to maintain equity on the show, Jett should see the No-Max version. Please write to us if you think he should do that.
Jett Loe (38:36.037)
She does, yeah.
Jett Loe (38:54.203)
Nah. Nah.
Gareth (39:00.604)
Last night, I'm not going to say what it is, but we'll talk about it on our next show. We're going to do a review of the year. Last night, I saw what I think should be the crowd pleasing film of the year. Almost nobody has seen it. And I was popcorn happy from start to finish with this German film set in the 1970s. A lot of rain in it.
Jett Loe (39:17.327)
Sorry, baby.
Gareth (39:28.912)
lot of running around, a lot of pushing things and big beaming joy and it's penultimate scene which is really it's climactic scene is I won't won't spoil it just an overwhelming and overwhelming delight an overwhelming delight and we'll talk about it in the show next week in general I might even tell you off air what it is so that you can see it
Jett Loe (39:40.027)
Don't spoil this for me, please.
I'm happy that Fastbender is still out there making movies.
Jett Loe (39:56.612)
Okay. Well, yes, we are going to do, we're recording this on Monday, December 22nd as we're slowly letting the air out like an old gas balloon of year 2025. We're going to do an end of the year wrap up. I think of our favorite, our favorite films. And as Gareth said too, we did on us a bonus episode. If you subscribe through Patreon or through Apple Podcasts, you can throw us a couple bucks. And we did have.
We actually did two shows in the original Avatar. So this was not our standard review, the one we just put on the bonus. That's where we had film critics, Armand White and Glenn Kenney. And we did do another, yeah, and we did do another show as well. But you can always contact us anytime. Don't forget if you love us or hate us, whether we're in 2D or 3D, you can contact us at info at thefilmtalk.com and we're on Patreon at patreon.com slash thefilmtalk. And we're also on Facebook.
Gareth (40:24.84)
Did we? I have a vague memory of that. Glen Canney?
Jett Loe (40:46.671)
For some strange reason at facebook.com slash the film talk, but I do post there pretty regularly. I've been posting a lot of stuff, a lot of videos for some reason. Maybe I just like to see myself talk.
Gareth (40:56.444)
I think you need a pipe in those videos because you look like you're in kind of a smoking room in a Victorian-era country house.
Jett Loe (41:03.995)
Well, this is where I smoke my cigars, the studio, yes.
Gareth (41:06.822)
Well, wonderful, wonderful. Well, I watch those videos and I enjoy them. And it's been good to talk with you today. We'll see. We'll see about Avatar, Fire and Ash, IMAX 3D. And I appreciate you making the commitment to seeing it in 2D. That's very kind of you. That's very kind of you. I've been Gareth Higgins.
Jett Loe (41:19.611)
colon, colon fire and ash 3D high frame rate IMAX go see it.
Jett Loe (41:28.59)
Chans in hell.
Jett Loe (41:33.379)
I've been Jett Loe.
Gareth (41:34.831)
We'll keep talking.
Jett Loe (41:36.868)
next time.