Gareth has placed Raiders of the Lost Ark somewhere Jett regards as evidence of a collapsing civilization. Part Two continues the impossible Spielberg ranking, with Duel helping clarify a useful principle: in the absence of reason, there is madness. Naturally, this does nothing to stop them.
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Jett Loe (00:18.152)
All right, pref okay, okay. All right, Gareth, Professor Dr. Gareth Higgins. We're gonna get right into it. We're gonna have the theme music hit in one second as we do this big blowout show ranking all the Spielbergs. but first I gotta say something to you and to the listeners. You know, often I do a little bit of jokey business, little fun little joke, and I was gonna open up the show with the standard like, how do you apply metrics to art? Right? We're gonna rank all these movies, but how do you I mean, is that just a grotesque, obscene thing to do? Is it appropriate? And I
The example I was going to use, I love my favorite artist, my favorite painter and artist is David Hockney. And I was I wrote something like, What am I gonna do? Am I gonna rank his work? Am I gonna say, well, 2004 is harvested field from his East Yorkshire series? That's eight on the list compared to his painting, lovely day with puddles, and that's a 23. But dear listeners, right before we started the show, we found out that David Hockney has passed. And
He was an incredibly feconed artist. If you're not familiar with his work, dear listener, please go there, take a look, Google him, or whatever AI him or whatever it is we're doing these days. The kids know. Ask them. Or ask your granddad, who's sending you AI stuff that is just horrific. But anyway, he's an incredible, was an incredible artist. And he his work has inspired me every day. I probably have more books on Hockney than I do on somebody like Kubrick or Spielberg.
And I just want to start off the show before we get into theme music, Gareth. Hockney said, I do believe that painting can change the world. If you see the world as beautiful, thrilling, and mysterious as I think I do, then you feel quite alive. And Gareth, dear listeners, that's how Spielberg's films make me feel. They make me feel alive.
Gareth (02:20.526)
See you later for now.
Jett Loe (02:21.851)
I'm just waiting for you to say something, we'll go into the theme music. I do what should we just let's go into the music. Let's go right into the music. Okay, then we go right into the music. Okay, we're ready, folks. I'm infused with the love of life that David Hockney has and infused with the love and wonder that Spielberg has. We're gonna rank all of his films, we're gonna apply metric s metrics to art as absurd as that is.
Gareth (02:23.712)
I thought we were going straight into the music. You said we were going...
Jett Loe (02:46.535)
Gareth, are you ready to start? We're gonna alternate back and forth. I think we've got thirty four films to go through. What do you have, Professor Dr. Gareth Higgins? And b by the way, hello. Nice to see you. Nice to
Gareth (02:56.28)
Hello, nice to see you. Hold on a minute. me, let me, it's good. Yeah, I can see that you're, I see you're popping. You're popping. You're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, ready. Let's say this, of course, we're doing this show because Spielberg's new film Disclosure Day has just been released. We have, dear listener, gone to the trouble, the discernment, the exercise, the discipline, what have you, of ranking these films.
Jett Loe (03:02.299)
I'm ready to go. Number thirty four.
Gareth (03:23.874)
There were 34 of them until Disclosure Day was released. There are now 35. Having just seen Disclosure Day, my ranking has been totally distorted, but we're going to hold that to the side and we're going to act as if there are only 34 films in this Spielberg verse. And then we'll do a separate episode on Disclosure Day later because we want to see it twice before we talk about it.
Jett Loe (03:30.247)
Yes.
Jett Loe (03:43.879)
Yes.
Where would you put disclosure day? Can you reveal to us or do we have to wait to the disclosure day episode? 'Cause we've got thirty
Gareth (03:50.873)
I am not willing to disclose that just yet. Although certainly from the text exchange you and I have had, we'll have an interesting conversation about this film.
Jett Loe (04:04.711)
Yes, I can tell what you're saying if you're putting it down at number thirty five or is it number one? That would be amazing actually, if you all of a sudden disclosure day became your top Spielberg.
Gareth (04:14.818)
I tend to think a film cannot, you can't really know where a film ranks in the, oeuvre, is that the word? Oeuvre, oeuvre?
Jett Loe (04:26.619)
Yes, I had some this morning with a sausage. It was delicious.
Gareth (04:27.886)
Excellent, excellent. I think a film needs to have been around for about 10 years before you can really, before it's seasoned itself well enough to know if it has legs. But it belongs somewhere on the list. I think we'd agree. It belongs somewhere on the list. It is a Spielberg film. It is a Spielberg film and we will talk about it.
Jett Loe (04:45.607)
W Yeah, it's a Spielberg film. It belongs on the list of Spielberg films. You are a brave critic. It's like I'm hanging out with Pauline Cale over here.
Gareth (04:55.05)
Alright, alright, alright. Let's move beyond the spoilers. say in Disclosure Day, which I finished watching about two and a half hours ago, it is a long time since I have felt that way in a movie theatre.
Jett Loe (04:58.311)
Yes.
Jett Loe (05:06.493)
Okay, we'll talk about on that episode. That's what I call a teaser, folks. Let's get right into ranking. And you know, we're doing this ranking show, which I don't think we've done that before. For me, it was inspired by the Boston Globe's horrific list, ranking Spielberg films, where they put close encounters of the third kind. I'm not going to tell you where it is on my list, but it sure as heck isn't at number 15 below like the Lost World, Jurassic Park. I what you I don't know what they're doing over there in Boston.
Gareth (05:18.143)
yes.
Jett Loe (05:34.757)
I don't know this Boston. I don't know what they do for a living. But man, that is rough. Okay, let's go with your we're gonna alternate back and forth. What is your 34th on the ranking? Number 34.
Gareth (05:43.823)
At 34, I'm sad to say, a film based on one of my favorite books growing up and a film whose lead actor is one of the great actors working today. But unfortunately, the storytelling in Spielberg's version of the BFG for me just falls apart. just...
Jett Loe (06:04.157)
yeah.
Gareth (06:10.914)
the probably the only Spielberg film I have no enthusiasm about watching again. The BFG.
Jett Loe (06:18.429)
Wow, that is that's a harsh comment. And I would agree with you if I'd seen it. Now, wait a minute, dear listeners, Gareth. You're like, wait, you can't rank. No, no, hold on. I there were 10, there were 10 Spielbergs that I had not seen. And looking at those 10, there I sort of felt like, these probably are the middling ones. There's a reason I did not see that. Now I was wrong on a few of those. So I have always Amistad, Hook, and the BFG. Those are all ones that I have not seen. But I kind of have a feeling about them.
Gareth (06:22.99)
What? Even if...
Gareth (06:44.782)
that scene. It's, yes, you when you, when you, when you told me a week ago that you were gonna watch all 10 that you hadn't seen yet in advance of us recording, it's the trust between us that keeps me coming back.
Jett Loe (06:46.927)
And put the I put them in the l in the twenties, low twenties.
Jett Loe (07:01.117)
We only have so much time in the day, and I feel justified in not watching the BFG because of what you've just said, but
Gareth (07:06.542)
So what did you say, the BFG, Hook and Amistad? Those are the three you haven't seen? That's four. Okay, okay. Well, let me help you out because number 33, I'm putting Hook, I'm putting Hook at number 33, a film. Say again? Yes, you should, Hook, another kind of,
Jett Loe (07:11.834)
And always.
Yes, there's four. Okay. But I I will watch them and then we could do a bu as a bonus show for the people that pay on, you know, our Patreon and you know all that and come to our Facebook page. I'll watch those four.
I will watch those for a we can do a bonus show.
Gareth (07:36.761)
thin disappointment. Robin Williams as Peter Pan, Dustin Hoffman as Captain Hook, Bob Hoskins as me. Hold on a minute.
The more I talk about it, the more I might be interested in going and watching it again. But I'm going to remember it as lower down the pecking order. Now you want... I have to say the bottom four on my list, because there's four you haven't seen. we haven't... Dear listener, I know it sounds like this has been rehearsed within an inch of its life, but Jett and I have not actually spoken to each other about our respective rankings.
Jett Loe (08:11.663)
No, because we wanna be fresh. We wanna you know, like Jackie Gleason. That's a little disclosure day reference, folks. Like Jackie no spoilers though, like Jackie Gleason doing his improv where he had someone else play his part during the rehearsals of the honeymooners and he came in fresh. that's how Gareth and I are. not saying there's anywhere near the same talent. I will the let let's let's go through the list here. Your thirty-four was BFG.
Gareth (08:18.158)
it is.
Gareth (08:28.174)
All right.
Gareth (08:35.982)
My 34 is the BFG, my 33 is hook, my...
Jett Loe (08:38.737)
Well hold on, let me get to my thirty four. We're gonna alternate here.
Gareth (08:41.698)
How can you have a 34th one for them you haven't seen?
Jett Loe (08:44.581)
Th I put those in the like low twenties.
Gareth (08:47.306)
Okay. So, okay, you're saying that Spielberg's worst film is worse than some that you haven't actually seen. Okay, good. Like I said, it's The Trust.
Jett Loe (08:49.371)
I know I'm right. My
Jett Loe (08:55.857)
That's exactly right. My my thirty-four. You know, we've been doing the show for years. The trust it takes time, right? But we trust, but we you know, but for but we also verify. So my thirty-four, can you guess what my thirty-four is, Gareth? I think you might be able to.
Gareth (09:03.938)
Yeah, it does. But verify it.
Gareth (09:12.494)
Give me a clue, give me a hint.
Jett Loe (09:15.301)
It's well, I thought this was gonna be your 34 because it's also based on a book. As are many of Spielberg's films. Maybe all of them. Okay. no! I love War of the Worlds. Are you kidding me? It's ready player one. It aps you know the
Gareth (09:20.142)
based on a book. at my list. Looking at my list. Looking at my list. Is it, is it War of the Worlds? Okay. It was already, it's Ready Player One. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it has that one great, you love the shining scene in it for like 10 seconds, for 10 seconds, but it really does just feel like a video game.
Jett Loe (09:40.167)
Well I mean it's it's like those
It just y you know, you're watching and the question is why? Why why is his name and why is he involved? What's he doing here? And it's a it has a very odd vibe and and it kind of reminds me of something, you know, Spielberg has been doing all these interviews and long podcast interviews, promoting Disclosure Day. And on one of the podcasts, one of the most interesting things he said was referring to an issue he has working with younger actors now.
Gareth (09:54.54)
Yeah, it does.
Jett Loe (10:11.825)
Because he is so famous, he used the word intimidated, that they were intimidated by him because they are raised on the his films. His films are part of their lives, so much so that, you know, obviously the concern is they're not necessarily going to assert themselves and bring that a game of of being discordant or having different ideas because they're working with Steven Spielberg, and obviously everything he says must be correct. So I think that's how I felt watching Ready Player One. It's like, why were you watching this detritus of his other movies? very, very
Odd and I'm I'm curious. I'd love to know why. I can guess I could read some interviews and do some research, folks. Sorry. why he decided to make this movie. But that's my 34. It doesn't work for me at all. I I felt it yeah, I had really a sad experience watching it. You know, you've read the book, right? There's that character who's d there's somebody who's disabled. I thought you had for some reason. I thought that'd be kind of your thing. But anyway, there's a character who's has a sort of a disability, is my understanding. I haven't read the book. but I found that up because when I saw the film in the theater,
Gareth (10:55.992)
No.
Jett Loe (11:09.745)
I'm sitting next to somebody who was disabled and she was upset. She's being cradled. Her her body was bent over and she was small. And she said to her mom, She's still beautiful, meaning the person that would is disfigured in the in the book. And then I think in the film just has a little, you know, a little stain on her on her face. So I don't know. Very I had very, very weird vibes, but we're, you know, we gotta move on because I I think we have a lot more interesting things. Thirty three Lost World.
Gareth (11:22.157)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (11:28.618)
Mm. Right.
Okay, so what's your number 33?
Jett Loe (11:38.43)
Cole in Jurassic Park. This is the like I think the first Spielberg film I saw when I realized this is not working and this is not necessarily a good film. It has a very strange, bitter taste to it. I would point out just like one as an example, one scene. there's the wonderful character actor Richard Schiff plays a care a guy called Eddie Carr. And he engages in a heroic rescue of someone, of some people in the film. And you see all of his effort, it's be beautifully staged.
Gareth (11:56.27)
you
Jett Loe (12:08.213)
and he succeeds, but then he dies. And you realize that our protagonists, our long-term protagonists of the film, have no idea of what he did. And that is a very strange thing, and it's it's very unsettling, and it's kind of unusual. And it kind of makes me now want to raise the number up from 33 because of the the almost the the the sadness in that in that. So for me, that didn't work in the context of Jurassic Park in a film like Schindler's List or maybe minority report.
Gareth (12:10.584)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (12:37.089)
that would work, but for for a film like Lost World Jurassic Park, it kinda leaves a bad taste in the mouth. That's why it's my number thirty three. It doesn't really work. What's your thirty three?
Gareth (12:45.102)
My number 32 is hooked, my number 32 is ready player one and we can move on to your 32.
Jett Loe (12:55.099)
My thirty two, wow. This is like what are we playing? Bingo here? Wait.
Gareth (12:58.542)
Ah, you've already said the things I agree with about Ready Player One. Want me to just repeat them? The disappointment feels like a video game. Why is he doing it? The trust.
Jett Loe (13:04.015)
Okay. This no no I've I I feel my my words can stand on their own. this is gonna be a qu a quick show. My thirty-two, maybe this is your beloved one, Warhorse. And okay. And we talked about
Gareth (13:18.599)
I adore that film, but way, way higher up my list.
Jett Loe (13:25.049)
here's the problem I had with War Horse, and it's a problem I have with the John Williams scores. I know. He's wonderful, he's a genius, incredible, incredible work. His music is so strong, dear listeners. That's great, right? But if it's doing the same thing that the visuals are doing, Spielberg's visuals, of course, incredibly strong, iconic images, beautiful compositions and camera work, blocking of the actors. But they're
Gareth (13:31.246)
you
Jett Loe (13:52.166)
In War Horse, they're both doing the same thing. So they're both working toward the same ends and it becomes too much. Now, as a counter argument, I would say, well, can't you, you know, what about action movies? Radio's lost arc. I mean, the music is doing the same thing as the visuals. For some reason that works for me for action, but not when it comes to drama, when I would like things turned down just a little bit. So that's why War Horse is my number 32. What number is it for you?
Gareth (14:18.35)
I'll tell you when we get to it. We cross the Warhorse Bridge when we come to it. A well-structured scripted episode.
Jett Loe (14:23.259)
All right, fair enough. I'm rooting for that horse.
Jett Loe (14:28.899)
Is this officially now the worst episode ever of this of the show?
Gareth (14:31.79)
I please... Well, one episode has to be. One episode has to be. Just like the BFG, you know, Spielberg has to have a worst film.
Jett Loe (14:35.473)
That's so
Jett Loe (14:41.159)
So we've done three hundred and thirty episodes. So this is number three thirty. Literally. It's literally at the bottom, folks. Okay, what is your thirty one?
Gareth (14:45.102)
Hahaha
31 is always from...
1989, saw it by myself, saw it by myself. The first summer of solo movie going, was 14 going to the Strand Cinema in East Belfast and always is a film about Richard Dreyfuss from beyond the grave trying to, I think initially prevent Holly Hunter from falling in love with another guy and then eventually making peace with that and meeting an angelic Audrey Hepburn, which is another way of saying meeting Audrey Hepburn. you know, Spielberg wanted to
make it this movie called A Guy Named Joe for a long time and he did and my sense in the last time I watched it, albeit it was a long time ago, it really doesn't feel like it has much of a signature to it.
Jett Loe (15:39.974)
Interesting. But it's I guess a way of processing things, right? You have something that is beloved and you want to explore that idea. And he did, and then you know, maybe it was good for him. It's just not good for us, is what you're saying. All right. Well, always I haven't seen. I put it at number yes. I put it at twenty-three. I just I put always almost at hook in the BFG.
Gareth (15:52.975)
seeing where it is on on your list. What's your number 31? Oh it's one of the... I want to know... So when we get to these films that you haven't seen, I want you to tell us with authority why they are at that particular number. When we get to them. When we get to them. So what is your number 31?
Jett Loe (16:06.139)
Yes. Yeah.
Jett Loe (16:12.675)
Okay, sure. My thirty one is Indiana Jones in the Kingdom of of the Crystal Skull.
Gareth (16:20.366)
it's three times better than anybody says it is.
Jett Loe (16:25.403)
I'm th that that sounds like that involves a lot of math. And unlike one of the protagonists in Disclosure Day, sorry, spoilers, I'm not gonna say anything. well, here's the thing. I remember watching Ineanne Jones in the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, and there's a shot of a of a boat going up a river, and it's maybe halfway through the film, maybe a little bit later, two-thirds of the way, and I perked up because it looked real. It looked like that was a real thing. Look at the beginning of Raiders the Lost Ark, he's running away from the natives, and
Gareth (16:49.994)
Sure.
Jett Loe (16:55.709)
He they fly off in a plane, he's got a snake. He's you look at it, look at the camera shake that's like mounted to the wing of the plane or or the body of the plane, and look at the look at Harrison Ford's hair, and he they're in the plane. It's it's something that's really happening. You watch Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and
Gareth (17:09.912)
Yeah.
Jett Loe (17:15.597)
Even the stuff that maybe they really built sets for. I remember hearing somebody being so surprised there's a big climactic thing with these rods that lower in steps. They actually built that as a set, but it doesn't look like a set because the color grading is so heavy. Kind of reminds me of Fury Road, the great Mad Max picture, which I love, but it's too saturated, so it looks fake even if the effects are practical, right? So you look at Road Warrior, it feels more real and visceral because there's no color grading and it's not there's no CG.
Gareth (17:39.082)
Well, did you watch the, what do they call it, the black and chrome edition of Fury Road?
Jett Loe (17:42.863)
I I did my favorite version of Fury Road is where I just turned down the saturation on my T V. That's which which I have done and watch it. I enjoy that a lot more because it feels real.
Gareth (17:48.461)
Yeah, yeah. Well, it'd be interesting to watch Crystal Skull that way too and Janosz.
Jett Loe (17:53.979)
Yes. good point.
Gareth (17:55.535)
Janusz Kaminski, I don't know if you read this, there's a wonderful oral history of Spielberg's work in New York magazine, although I'm not sure that this is where I saw this point. Kaminski himself said that he feels like he failed to capture the look that Douglas Slocum brought to the first three Indiana Jones films. And he said, God bless him, said, and the reason I couldn't do it is because I'm not Douglas Slocum.
Jett Loe (18:23.993)
I I mean it's interesting. I didn't realize he was trying to do that. It's not. And yeah, Slocum's work is really we can talk about the Relators Lost Ark, and the Temple of Doom and then what he did, how much he changed it up for I mean he was he did change the look of the three films b based upon the theme and what what the what the beats were with the emotional aspects of the of the picture are which we can talk about that. But Crystal Skulls like you where they're at Roswell or they're at Area 51, they kind of put those two together in the movie.
Gareth (18:25.942)
It's not a good looking film. It's not a good looking film.
Jett Loe (18:51.611)
And you look at the trucks in the background, it just all feels like, those are just like digital matte paintings. It doesn't feel like you're there at all. Compare that to Rade of the Lost Ark, when they're unearthing the well of the souls. They're actually they're they're there. They're in the desert. They've got tons of extras. It's real. in the same way as something like Empire of the Sun feels real with incredible amounts of extras, but you don't feel that in in Crystal Skull. That's why it's my number thirty one.
Gareth (19:09.772)
Mm-hmm, sure.
Gareth (19:14.284)
Well, it's a little higher up on my list. What's your 30?
Jett Loe (19:18.929)
My th did you tell us you're thirty one?
Gareth (19:20.768)
No, no, I'm working to alternate. I don't want to always start. That's not fair. That's not fair. Always. It wasn't that long ago. It wasn't that long ago.
Jett Loe (19:24.273)
Well no, but I mean I say one, but what was your thirty one?
Okay.
You know, folks, sometimes you can look back and someone suffers from something and you go, there's the warning sign. And the fact that I'd forgotten about always being Garrett's thirty one tell that could be an early sign. So please, if there are any medical professionals, I'm sure there are some clinicians, providers who are listening to the show, please feel free to reach out to me, Jet Lowe, at our Patreon page and I'll I can take a cognitive test. My thirty, I can do my thirty. Indiana Jones, the Kingdom of Crystal Skull is my thirty one. My thirty is the adventures of Tin Tin.
Gareth (19:37.432)
you
Gareth (20:00.143)
Mmm.
Jett Loe (20:01.511)
Beautifully made film. My only question is, is it necessary? I was raised on the Tin Tin books, like I guess you and the BFG. I remember that. and I didn't don't feel they need motion added to them. They have incredible compositions, they have an incredible look. I love the Tintin books, all of them Explorers on the Moon. When they go down to South America, all that stuff is great. Some of the stuff's are what we would now call problematic, especially his stuff when he visits Native American indigenous people, Native Americans in the US and Africa.
Gareth (20:27.608)
Sure. Sure.
Jett Loe (20:29.607)
But I did it just felt like it's sort of like ready player one. It's like, why is this necessary? You know, other than as a technical exercise. That's why it's my number thirty.
Gareth (20:37.41)
Sure. it yeah, it does. The only thing I really remember about is this extraordinary chase sequence that involves a lot of kind of running across roofs and water. And I remember another critic writing about it being the most kinetic of recent films understood that movies are supposed to be about movement. But I remember very little else about it. It's not my number 30, though. My number 30 may be a controversial choice, maybe a controversial choice. And this is based on having
Jett Loe (20:43.708)
Yes.
Jett Loe (21:07.079)
Jaws.
Gareth (21:07.344)
I saw this film twice on its initial release and then I watched it again a couple of months ago and this is a film that is visually resplendent. It has one of the best supporting performances in any Spielberg film, a film that is substantially better than the rest of the film. It has a fascinating central idea.
great action sequences, a lovely kind of comedy bleak sequence involving surgery and the expository dialogue in Minority Report takes it way down the list for me. There is too much telegraphing and telling you exactly what's happening while it's happening, despite the presence of Max Von Sino, despite the presence of Samantha Morton, who I'm referring to as the...
Jett Loe (21:49.981)
wow.
Gareth (22:04.958)
aching, aching, achingly brilliant performance as one of the pre-cogs. But yeah, my recent viewing, it felt like I'm being told a lot here rather than shown. That's my number 30.
Jett Loe (22:19.357)
I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you what number what do you think is on my list? I'm gonna tell you my number.
Gareth (22:22.35)
No, I don't want you to know. I don't want to, I don't want to. I'm going to, you can say the number to the listener and I'm not going to listen. So you, want you to, I'm going to, I'm going to take my headphones off and then want you to wave at me after you've told the listener what the number is. All right. Headphones are, have, headphones are going off.
Jett Loe (22:31.271)
Take off.
Okay. I'm gonna give you a thumbs up. Headphones off now.
Okay, can't hear me, dear listener. Minority report is amazing for so many reasons. It's my number seven. Okay, I'm gonna have Gareth put his headphones back on. Okay, I'm giving you a thumbs up now, Gareth.
Jett Loe (23:10.629)
Okay, thumbs up there, Gareth.
Gareth (23:12.396)
Yeah, hilariously, as soon as I took my headphones off, your image froze. So I'm assuming you've already told the listener the number.
Jett Loe (23:22.629)
I have. What a travesty.
Gareth (23:24.716)
Alright, well I didn't hear you. What a showcase, so what's your number 30?
Jett Loe (23:30.417)
My thirty my thirty is the adventures of Tintin. What's happening with this show? Yes, this literally may be the worst episode of the God bless you for listening. Whoever's left, they're leaving in droves. Twenty nine, my tw
Gareth (23:34.404)
you said that already. That's right. This is... Yes.
Gareth (23:41.751)
Alright, number 29. Number 29. Number 29. It's connected. It's linked. It's of a piece. And it's also got some really poor dialogue in it. And it also has a horrendously bleak, dank sequence in a dark place. And that is War of the Worlds.
Jett Loe (24:03.385)
Are you kidding? Okay. War I'm writing this down, dear listeners. War of the worlds. Wow.
Gareth (24:06.478)
We're getting edgy here. You're right here. Sorry to say. Sorry to say.
Jett Loe (24:13.327)
And why is it so low? Number twenty nine on your list.
Gareth (24:16.712)
lot of expository dialogue. I think it looks very metallic and I think Morgan Freeman's opening narration is cliched and
Jett Loe (24:25.127)
Yes.
Jett Loe (24:34.055)
You mean where he reads the actual text from the book?
Gareth (24:36.448)
Yes, yes, but it's about having him do it.
Jett Loe (24:39.035)
I guess HG Wells can be seen as cliche considering he did War of the Worlds, the Invisible Man, Time Machine, Shape of Things to Come. You know, he's very influential.
Gareth (24:51.918)
I'm not saying the writing is cliché, I'm saying using Morgan Freeman, even as long ago as 2005, using him as a kind of a God's voice is a bit of a cliché. I remember the thing that really struck me about it was the kind of 9-11 echo of the sheer horror of this eruption of murder onto the streets. yeah, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It's number 29. Spielberg has to have a 29.
Jett Loe (24:59.911)
He He needs to work.
Jett Loe (25:19.047)
Well, you and I will have to have a talk.
Gareth (25:21.872)
Worst film or 29th best is the 29th best
Jett Loe (25:23.431)
We yeah we you and I have to have a a twenty-nine talks about what's going on here with this list. I'm I'm I'm my twenty-nine, what I don't know if this is gonna be your number one, is the Tom Hanks vehicle, the terminal. And for me it's interesting if you're a Spielberg completist in the sense that he has always had this intense fascination with consumerism, with brands, with logos.
Gareth (25:29.012)
Alright, so what is your number 29?
Gareth (25:39.662)
you
Jett Loe (25:50.536)
With how people interact with objects that are made by large companies. If you look at you can see in the Sugarland Express with this emphasis on you know the logo and the look of a used car lot and of other places that you can go to, fast food joints, what have you, you think about the giant logo, the seventy-six logo coming off a gas station in Jurassic Park, The Lost World by number thirty three, in case you've forgotten. so the terminal's interesting for that, and you have a character who's trapped in brands.
But other than that, for me it's you know, it's a sort of the lower it's it's lower. It's a lower on the list. It's a twenty it's a twenty niner. I call that a twenty niner, the terminal. All right.
Gareth (26:26.126)
All right. Well, what's your 28-er?
Jett Loe (26:29.895)
Twenty eighther is the Sugarland Express. And this is one of the films that was on my 10. What? Are you what are you a huge William Atherton fan? What?
Gareth (26:32.982)
What?
Gareth (26:38.092)
You got to do a couple of watts for me. Hold on, is Sugarland Express number 28 because you haven't seen it?
Jett Loe (26:44.347)
No, I've seen the sugar line. I just saw it.
Gareth (26:46.179)
What?
Jett Loe (26:48.419)
okay, I well I wanna say something here, but no, I can't because it's gonna be spoilers for disclosure day, so I'm not gonna say it. Look, o okay.
Gareth (26:54.636)
Well, ask the listener to take their headphones off and then we can tell them whenever you finish saying it.
Jett Loe (26:59.793)
Well, we we could, but we don't know what if the listeners drive I don't want they could be driving, they could be walking the dog, they could be jogging. I don't wanna cause I don't wanna be, you know, I I'm trying to I just feel the world needs more love and empathy. I don't want to cause any problems. Sugarland Express. here's the thing. It's gotten so dear listener, this is his first, you know, intentional theatrically released film or or produced with the idea of being theatrically distributed, unlike dual which was made for TV and then got theatrical distribution Europe in Europe 'cause it's so good.
Gareth (27:04.376)
We don't want to cause an accident.
You want to text me?
Jett Loe (27:28.839)
it's got incredible cinematography, Gareth, right? The camera movement, the blocking. there's there's shots that are just unbelievable. You've got like you've got a couple characters that are on the run, right? William Atherton, promising career, and then he got typecast as a jerk, right? I mean, because of his face, you know, he's the bad guy and Ghostbusters and like
Gareth (27:42.764)
Mm-hmm.
I think we say mainly because of some people's perceptions of his face.
Jett Loe (27:50.534)
Yeah, that I think that was implicit in what I said, right? His face. Not I'm not saying his face really is that of a jerk. I'm just saying p y y on film, he plays a jerk, or I I'll say Dick. Ghostbusters, Die Hard, Die Hard Two, Real Genius. So he owned that space. but in 1974, he's able to play kind of a young male lead. so this is first theatrical release film. I mean the camera movement's amazing. There's a there's a conversation between the cops who's basically chasing our guys who are on the run.
Gareth (27:52.812)
He's a handsome man.
Okay.
Gareth (28:00.567)
Like in Ghostbusters and what, is he in Die Hard? Yeah, yeah,
Jett Loe (28:20.369)
And they both have have walkie-talkies, and the camera is moving back and forth in the cars as the cars are moving back and forth in real time and they're talking in real time. And yeah, you know, it's a ma it's amazing. But it's all in the service of what? There's a a fundamental problem, I would say, with Sugarland Express in that it's like a star vehicle for Goldie Hahn, who was a big star in the early 70s, and she had like a well-known persona. We think of like Steve McQueen as being cool and taciturn, and she was sort of like ditzy and wild. But
Looking at this in 2026, she comes across as delusional. And she's supposed to be delusional because William Ather didn't realize this. my God, this this lady, she's not in the real world. Excuse me. But it's very, it's very odd that this character is is does not seem to know what's going on. And and you can imagine it just doesn't work with Goldie Hahn. There's an actress of the same age it would have worked with, I think, and that's Sally Field. If Sally Field had played that part, I think maybe the film could really have worked.
But the whole Goldie Honness of it, again, she was a star, so think of it as a star vehicle. That made sense in 74, but looking at it now, it just doesn't it just doesn't work. Number twenty-eight on my list, Sugarland Express.
Gareth (29:25.678)
We may have to agree to disagree. I am stunned, sir. I'm stunned. I'm stunned by your response to...
Jett Loe (29:35.643)
I'm still stunned by y you know war horse. All right, we're that was twenty eight. What is your twenty seven, sir?
Gareth (29:40.323)
What number are we at? OK, Crystal Skull, Crystal Skull. The only thing I want to say about it that hasn't been said already is there is that astonishing sequence in, guess, in Los Alamos when what you referred to at the time is the birth of the modern era, the sequence that a lot of people felt the indie films had jumped the shark by by having him hide inside a refrigerator, which
ruled across.
dunes and you couldn't possibly have survived that. But in the there's plenty of things that Indy couldn't possibly have survived. And then when he gets out of that fridge, he's looking at a mushroom cloud. And it's a really powerful image. And I think it's one of those things that gives the light, the idea, you the superficial critique of of Spielberg is that he's sentimental as if sentiment by itself is a bad thing. I think what people mean by that is that he's thinly sentimental, that he doesn't earn the emotions
in his film and we can talk about that. But when you look at this man's filmography, the features that he's directed, you cannot say that his films are primarily fluffy. There is a lot of bleakness. There is a lot of pain in Spielberg films. And having a mushroom cloud representing the birth of the modern era in an Indiana Jones film is one of those bleak things. the film still...
doesn't look good and so that's why I've got it at number 27.
Jett Loe (31:12.263)
Well, you know, you make me want to change my ranking because you're absolutely right. And I think we talked about this in the original show. because before you s because before you said birth of the modern era, I wrote down on my notes birth of the modern era. And that is actually, and we've talked about this before, so I'm gonna move it up on my list because that is one of the most extraordinary scenes slash shots in all of Spielberg's oeuvre, and with including the John Williams score. So I'm gonna throw out everything I just said about War Horse because
Gareth (31:18.712)
We did, yes.
Gareth (31:23.81)
Yeah, yeah,
Jett Loe (31:41.724)
The ro the music is rousing and also has that undercurrent of dread as as Indiana Jones sees the mushroom cloud. And it's actually astonishing. So it's one of those things. I remember at the time we talked about this, right? I thought this is maybe one of his worst films, but it contains his best shot of any of his movies or his most amazing shot. So it's a it's an unusual one. So I'm gonna pump that up. All right. What are we doing now? Twenty seven?
Gareth (32:00.695)
One of his best, yeah, maybe his best show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was 27. You need to cut this. Can you switch your camera off and on again? You've been frozen for about 10 minutes.
Jett Loe (32:16.477)
Yeah, I'll just I'll just turn it off this bandwidth. I'll just do that. Okay. I don't know if that's gonna make a difference 'cause you're freezing up too. It could just be my my wifi too, you know.
Gareth (32:19.598)
No, I'd like to see you.
Gareth (32:26.135)
Let's see what else... you... Are you... No?
Jett Loe (32:27.931)
Okay. Can you see me?
It could just be that my bandwidth is not working, yeah.
Gareth (32:35.342)
Okay, all right, well, I'll trust that it's you that I'm speaking to. Okay, so 27, yeah, you're 27.
Jett Loe (32:41.337)
It is. Number twenty seven.
Jett Loe (32:46.513)
My 27. Now this is a strange one. Initially with the list, you know, we're constrained, not just by the laws of men, but also the laws of ranking Spielberg films. I was going to say this is and I'll see if you can guess the picture. And you ask yourself out there too, dear listeners. This film was so strange and almost felt un un not say unwatchable, but unjudgeable, unrankable, and so unusual in Spielberg's oeuvre.
That I don't want to give it a number at all, but it's worth watching. If you love Spielberg films and you want to see parts of all of his other movies in one movie where it doesn't quite work, but you you can watch and go, wait a minute, does he like reuse that for one of the In Ann Jones pictures? Wait a minute, does he reuse that for Empire of the Sun? it would be this film. It's very, very strange. What film am I talking about, dear listeners, and Gareth?
Gareth (33:40.046)
1941.
Jett Loe (33:41.778)
That's exactly right. This film, imagine the well, you know, I mean, hey, you're on this show. We're doing it. I got you. appreciate you, Gareth. nineteen forty one. Imagine, dear listeners, not many people have seen this picture, if Joe Dante and John Landis and and Ivan Reitman, yeah. Yeah.
Gareth (33:43.406)
it's nice to have a bit of achievement once in a while.
Gareth (34:02.658)
Yes. Writer of the Divine Comedy.
Jett Loe (34:08.174)
If Joe Dante and John Landis and Ivan Reitman, you all the Ghostbusters and they made a version of like Animal House or a Joe Dante picture, like a but imagine all that.
Gareth (34:17.112)
Hold on. For a moment there, I thought you were suggesting that if you had Joe Dante, Ivan Reitman, and guess John Landis play the three initiating Ghostbusters.
Jett Loe (34:29.213)
I don't I don't think I don't think that would be very good. But but who knows, maybe Joe Dante's got great chops in front of the camera.
Gareth (34:34.438)
I Joe Dante would be great. Listen, I think he'd be great. Anyway, keep talking about 1941.
Jett Loe (34:40.867)
If you is, I mean, it's not too late. He's still with us. Everybody's still with us. You combine all those guys into a movie. This film's it stars like the cast of Animal House and Ghostbusters, but imagine making one of these movies, but there's no laughs. It's a very odd film. You're seeing all of Spielberg's incredible camera tracking. It's sort of like his his homage, you know, his joy of watching films like It's a Mad Mad Mad World and films like Animal House. But you just don't laugh. You just sort of sit there and go, what?
Gareth (34:44.472)
Yes.
Gareth (34:56.726)
It is an odd film. It is an odd film.
Jett Loe (35:11.175)
How, how did this happen? And it's really odd when you think about it, it happened after Close Encounters. It feels like this is the film he made like before Sugarland Express. He made it after Jaws and Close Encounters and right before Raiders the Lost Arc, which is apparent in retrospect because again, there's scenes where basically, you know, John Belushi is is Harrison Ford in Raiders the Lost Ark, but it doesn't work on any level. It's this bizarre comedy that takes place in 1940s California. I mean, it has to show muffoon in it.
The star of seven samurai and Christopher Lee.
Gareth (35:41.058)
Well, you know, mean, Coop... Coop... Kubrick said it should have been marketed as a drama.
Jett Loe (35:48.111)
Did he really say that?
Gareth (35:49.26)
Yeah, he really did.
Jett Loe (35:51.132)
Well, that makes sense. Maybe I can rewatch it with fresh eyes. I'm not going to. But maybe I could. What's your what's your twenty seventh?
Gareth (35:56.259)
But... already did my 27. Number 26 is The Terminal, a film we broadly agree on. one thing you didn't mention yet is the very best thing about The Terminal, and that is the...
tremendous, always welcome, delicious presence of the Indian American character actor Kumar Pallana, who gets more to do in The Terminal than in the Wes Anderson films that he was part of. that's what I got to say for The Terminal, number 26. What's your 26?
Jett Loe (36:42.033)
Memorable. Memorable. My twenty six is the BFG, which I've not seen. Again, I put those in the I put those in the kind of the twenty six, twenty fives. That feels right. It just feels right.
Gareth (36:46.581)
Hahaha
Gareth (36:51.232)
Why? Why? Because Mark Rylance is in it. It's got it. I Mark Rylance is the best thing in it for sure. I Mark Rylance is the best thing in everything that he's in. I know you did. I know you did. And you know what? You know what, Chet? The listener knows you did too. And our new listeners may not know that you did.
Jett Loe (37:01.187)
I once made Mark Rylance laugh, right? I was w was working
Jett Loe (37:11.579)
I was working for world famous wealthy millionaire author Ken Follett and I was answering phones for Ken, Pillars of the Earth and all those. And I'm answering phones for him, right? It's my job. And Mark Rylands calls and he was supposed to come to a party at Ken's and he I'm so sorry I can't make it. I'm doing Richard the third. And I said, That's all right, darling. At least you're working. And you know, that made him laugh.
Gareth (37:18.464)
one of the pillars of the earth.
Gareth (37:33.486)
I'm assuming you didn't have to sign an NDA for that.
Jett Loe (37:38.823)
You know, I think I did have to sign NDA, but come on. It was it's been a long, long time. What's your twenty five?
Gareth (37:40.559)
Catch me if you can. And we're starting to get into something that I think is really rather lovely. And that is the further we go up or I don't know, we're going down the list right here. We're going down the list.
And the harder it is to pick between some of these films because almost all of them is wonderful. And Catch Me If You Can is also wonderful. I remember it being cartoonish. I actually remember it's very much of a piece with the Tin Tin film. It has great opening credits. It's got lovely Leo in it. It has fantastic Martin Sheen with amazing teeth. And most of all, it has a pathos filled Christopher Walken.
film that could have been a bit of fluff but is actually quite sad in the end. Catch me if you can. What about you at 25?
Jett Loe (38:39.421)
That's a good film. I'm gonna say what number catch catch me if you can. For me, it was my fourteen. It's a it's a really good film that works. What what difference does that make? Well that puts it but that it's putting things in context in terms of our relationship as we talk.
Gareth (38:44.162)
Don't tell me the numbers. Don't tell me the numbers till we get to the numbers. That's a spoiler. It's a spoiler for the episode.
Gareth (38:55.468)
When you hear where Sugarland Express is, you're going to be surprised.
Jett Loe (38:59.942)
Okay, let's move on.
Gareth (39:01.804)
So what is your number 25?
Jett Loe (39:03.579)
I gotta just open it's getting really hot in here, I gotta open the door. I'll be right back. Tell it'll take me one second.
Jett Loe (39:21.969)
Okay, sorry about that. I'm back. What what was your question? What's my number 25? My 25. This film is a film that I have not seen, but I feel like it's a 25-er. I'm just getting that sense, you know, my movie spidey sense, and that's hook.
Gareth (39:24.898)
What's your number 25?
Gareth (39:36.323)
Yes.
you're more generous than... You're more generous than I am, but there is one major difference between your experience of hook and mine.
Jett Loe (39:40.466)
How did
Jett Loe (39:47.355)
That you've seen the motion picture? Called Hook?
Gareth (39:48.591)
I have seen it. Number 24 for me is The Lost World. I hear what you're saying about Richard Schiff's heroism and death being ignored, although that could actually be seen as a mark of quality in the film. pseudo, know, nearly anonymous death is part of the horror of the story. My primary memory of The Lost World is, is it is Julianne Moore? Julianne Moore and Jeff Goldblum are
Jett Loe (40:05.521)
You're right. You're right.
Jett Loe (40:17.565)
Yeah.
Gareth (40:18.554)
hanging off the edge of a cliff in a bus or a truck or an RV or something like that. All right, good. What's your 24?
Jett Loe (40:23.675)
Yes, that's it.
Well, you know, the thing about I w I wanna say something here. I've changed my mind. That makes it a much better picture. The it because that then makes us the audience almost like like we're like the divine being looking down. We're like the Greek gods looking down at these people because we know what has happened and they don't. And that's actually really interesting. But I still think the film doesn't work as a whole. I mean, 'cause it's it's full of stuff that you know, you expect to see in li y
Gareth (40:30.562)
Yes. yes? Yes.
Jett Loe (40:53.081)
you know, a a Paul Anderson, W S Anderson film, not a PT Anderson film, but that other the other guy. For instance, there's a a character, Jeff Goldblum's daughter, and she's like, she did make the team on the parallel bars. And then later in the film on the on the set, you know, dinosaurs are attacking. look, there's bars on the t on the on the ceiling that are just like parallel bars. I mean that's you know, that's that's not something you would expect.
Gareth (41:16.718)
It's called movie magic. Movie magic. It's movie magic.
Jett Loe (41:18.889)
Maybe you're watching 1941. Not something you would expect in the in the old Spielbergs. My twenty-four is Amistad, another film that I have not seen. I know I'm letting you down, dear listeners. Maybe it's amazing. I will watch always Amisted, Hook and the BFG for you and for Gareth. We'll whack it as a bonus. I felt that Amistad feels like a 24er. Am I wrong, Gareth?
Gareth (41:27.822)
Hmm.
Gareth (41:42.799)
You'll find out soon enough. Number 23 is The Post. And I'm willing to revise that once I see it again. I think my judgment of The Post may be colored by the fact that I was watching it in the early stage of the current political era that we've been living in. so it was was probably the nostalgia of watching a film in which some
somebody exposing a deception or corruption in a political institution and that resulting in some form of accountability. I guess it felt like a really nostalgic and totally unrealistic film. But it's the first, I guess you could call it explicitly political film on my list.
And it's something that gets forgotten, ignored or disregarded about Spielberg is that he's an eminently political filmmaker in the sense of nation building the myth of a nation. And. It's a truly inclusive myth. Now, we said we weren't going to talk about Disclosure Day yet, and we won't, but.
just say that this political bent that he has, the desire to call people to their better angels and to make the world a better place is so substantive and shot all the way through the post, which I think he made that film specifically as a response to the political crisis that was unfolding in the US and around the world at the time.
Jett Loe (43:35.324)
And that's how I feel about disclosure day as well, that it's a response. And we'll talk about it on that show. It's a response to what's happening, very much so in the United States. you know, l listening to you, Gareth, I'm I'm starting to shift my rankings around because now Crystal Skull's getting higher because he is a political filmmaker. So in the most iconic shots in if you think of in in Crystal Skulls, we have the American flag and we have this camera panning down, and you realize the madness of it all, we have these reveals of the atomic bomb.
Gareth (43:39.628)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (44:03.559)
Like the and we see the the melting faces, we see genuine horror in that film. It's an amazing sequence. We see the lie of of America as benevolent. And even if Americans are getting attacked. So we have you know a bunch of shoulder soldiers shot just after seeing the American flag. And it just says that this land is seeped in blood and violence. And to so to to that point, I agree with you a hundred percent. I think he's a very political filmmaker. As we see in my num yes.
Gareth (44:30.339)
Well...
Well, was going to say, you know, when you say we see the the lie of that America is benevolent, I think he probably sees it as the part of the American myth of its own exclusive benevolence that is a lie, because clearly there are I mean, there are beautiful, good, heroic, kind, self-sacrificing things that are within that mythos, too. But this is the it is the strangest thing you think about when was when is the other recent depiction of a
Jett Loe (44:42.909)
Yes. Yes.
Gareth (45:01.924)
mushroom cloud in visual entertainment. I'm not talking about Oppenheimer, by the way, that was received by the audience and by critics as this astonishing, dramatic, let's call it prophetic word by an artist in the last 20 years. When it...
Jett Loe (45:22.203)
Yeah. Episode episode eight. Episode eight of Twin Peaks of Return by David Lynch. Astonishing, astonishing visual of atomic ball.
Gareth (45:27.694)
An artist who is an artist who is taken far more seriously than Spielberg is taken as an American myth maker, as a a as a critic of of of lies, as a a critic of violence and of domination and also kind of, you know, warm warm milk and cookies that that he he champions kindness, wonder, joy and delight. I've never really
thought this before, but there is a lot more in common between David Lynch and Steven Spielberg than is usually attributed. And I'm just saying Spielberg did the mushroom cloud first.
Jett Loe (46:09.159)
Well, you remember what Lynch what did Lynch said in an interview? Because you know, there's famously Lynch was invited by George Lucas to come up there to the ranch and Skywalker Ranch and talk about the the possibility of directing Return of the Jedi. Sure. Jedi is kicking butt in the early eighties. We're gonna get we're gonna have some rap music. It's gonna be great.
Gareth (46:22.734)
A film called Revenge of the Jedi, think you'll find it was called at the time.
Hehehehehe
Jett Loe (46:35.809)
Well Lynch said, I'm paraphrasing, but not by very much, something along the lines of George Lucas and I both both make what we love. The only thing is when George makes something and makes a billion dollars.
Gareth (46:46.862)
Or he could have said, when George makes it, many other people love it too.
Jett Loe (46:52.621)
Well, you know, David Lynch, many people love his stuff as well. See episode eight, folks, of Twin Peaks of Return.
Gareth (46:55.85)
Adored him. Adored him. So what is your number 23?
Jett Loe (47:01.317)
My Tump twenty-three. Ooh, it's always folks. And this is one of those films that I haven't seen. But again, I they feel I feel all the Spielbergs that I deliberately avoided. Because I used to watch ev growing up, I watched every single film that was ever released theatrically in every language. If it was playing near me, I saw everything. But so I had to actively not see something. And always was one of those. But I will watch it for you, dear listeners and Gareth, as a bonus ep. It'll be coming up at some point, probably in in July.
Gareth (47:05.454)
You
Jett Loe (47:29.809)
Let's move on quickly, quickly, quickly. What's your twenty two?
Gareth (47:33.103)
Indiana Jones and the Cali cult, the Temple of Doom, which, you know, we've talked about it a lot. And yes, the last 40 minutes are just an extraordinary action sequence. There's lovely performances in it. It's it zips along. It's screwball comedy action. And. The fact that it's at number 22 doesn't mean it's a bad film. It means we're dealing with.
Jett Loe (47:36.253)
no
Gareth (48:00.301)
I think I can say it now. I think I can I can reveal we're dealing with a truly great artist here and even his 22nd best film is a film I'd be willing to watch once every I'm going to say every 22 months. You don't watch Temple of Doom for fun after the first 20 minutes.
Jett Loe (48:26.225)
Well, this comes this is gonna be part of the whole disclosure day show. And we and I think as Val to talk about his other you know, the other films in this context. His filmmaking craft is so high, and again I'd say with disclosure day, it's unparalleled when it comes to moving the camera and and blocking. Okay, okay, I'm disclosing. I gotta go back in the closet. With with listen, I I love everybody.
Gareth (48:42.048)
Mm-hmm. yeah. Don't talk about Disclosure Day. You're doing too much disclosing of the Disclosure Day.
Jett Loe (48:56.365)
With something like Temple of Doom, I mean the craft is so high with the action sequences, I cannot in good conscience put it down at at 22. But again, we're gonna talk all about that with disclosure day. But my number 22, I feel the same way. The the craft is impeccable. I just don't feel the film is necessary. And by saying that, I'm not saying it's not vital. My 22 is 2021's West Side Story. And maybe yes. god, no.
Gareth (49:20.014)
It's gonna get... It is just you. It is just you. I don't even think it really is you. If you'd seen it in a theater, you wouldn't be saying this.
Jett Loe (49:26.511)
West listen, I it just maybe it's just me. It's just me because I love Robert Wise's vibe. I love Robert Wise's movies, right? Even the sound of music.
Jett Loe (49:39.432)
Fair enough. But look, man, Robert Wise, not to go back to him, I just talked about him a second ago, mentioned his name. I mean, you know, he he c he made his bones, so to speak. you know, cutting, working as a cutter and editor on Citizen Kane. He did the haunting, he did the amazing, wonderful, the Andromeda strain, he did my favorite Star Trek, Star Trek the Motion Picture, he made West Side Story. So that's what lives in my heart. Maybe if I was not familiar with the Robert Wise version.
Gareth (49:54.318)
the day the Earth stood still.
Gareth (50:01.327)
Does the sound of music live in your heart?
Jett Loe (50:07.393)
I love Christopher Plummer. Not just for ripping up the Nazi flag, because Christopher Plummer resulted, his actions resulted, his an interview with my favorite headline of all time on a British tabloid from years ago. Quote, my sex in sex injury made William Shatner a star. Because William Shatner, Plummer and Shatner were both stage guys, theatrical guys.
Gareth (50:09.71)
Hahahaha
Gareth (50:19.318)
Yes, yes, I remember this well.
Gareth (50:25.675)
injury.
Jett Loe (50:34.373)
Shatner young in his career with an understudy for Plummer. Plummer had, quote, a sex injury, had to go in the hospital for a night or so. Shatner came in as the understudy and killed it, knocked it out of the park. And then, you know, Shatner's on his way as a theater actor. And that's a good you know what? I've forgotten. I am so transfixed by that tabloid headline. I'm gonna say it again. My sex in injury made William Shatner a star. Who amongst us wish that wasn't the case?
Gareth (50:40.418)
Yes.
Gareth (50:47.416)
so to speak. Was it Hamlet?
Gareth (50:52.984)
All right.
Gareth (51:03.244)
Well, you know, we could go all kinds of directions with that. I will say that I saw a little bit of footage of Shatner at a convention recently when signing a poster for Star Trek The Motion Picture and the fan asked him, what was your favorite thing about making this film? And Shatner's answer was lunch. I suspect he doesn't like Star Trek The Motion Picture as much as you and I do. A vastly underrated film.
Jett Loe (51:23.537)
Y but but you know, that's a that that's just that's like Plummer. Plummer was asked about Star Crash. Why does he play the Emperor of the Universe? And he goes, I got like three days in Rome. The food. You know, that's why he did it. Listen, this show's going long. Should we let's split it up. Let's split it up and we'll do two parts.
Gareth (51:34.735)
It is it is so I I I think it's a well I I want to even sit I want to suggest something even more radical. Let's do number 21 and then end this episode here and then you and I can confer offline as it were and keep people on the on
Jett Loe (51:50.406)
Okay.
Jett Loe (51:56.37)
Yes.
Gareth (52:02.126)
with a cliffhanger if we may do that. Dear listeners, is it okay for us to do a cliffhanger? I hope so.
Jett Loe (52:12.103)
Aren't they you know they're rebooting, they're remaking Cliffhanger? Does and I at at a certain point you're just like, What just just no. Let's just let's move let's just move on. but it would be kind of interesting if it was a dark reimagining. Like what if it was made as a real adult film? Like they got, you know, so the the today's equivalent of Tom Stoppard to do the to do the script.
Gareth (52:15.202)
They are remaking Cliffhanger, yes.
Gareth (52:23.735)
Number
you
Gareth (52:32.974)
Who is today? is no equivalent of Tom Stoppard today. Number 21. Mammoth's cliffhanger is worth pondering. Yes.
Jett Loe (52:37.489)
Well, David Mammoth is o off somewhere, isn't he? I'm not sure.
Jett Loe (52:47.185)
Does it st who does it star? Does it star Joe Montaigne? Only an older Joe Montaigne. And he's he's had to work out for eighteen months to get into shape. He's he's got
Gareth (52:54.452)
I want Brian blessed, you know, Brian blessed climbs mountains and once climbed Everest using only, I don't know, like a yogurt pot and some string or something or something like that. I would like Brian blessed to be the mentor to the Mantegna character and the man in mammoth cliffhanger. But we were dwelling too much in this because we're not getting to the end of the episode and film choice number 21, which.
Jett Loe (53:18.781)
We're gonna end on twenty one and then we're gonna wow, okay.
Gareth (53:20.086)
which for me is 1941, which is a watchable film. It's a watchable film in parts. And yes, maybe if it had been marketed as a satire rooted in real drama, like Dr. Strangelove, it would have a different reputation. You can, you can.
Jett Loe (53:40.957)
Could I ask you a question about nineteen forty one? When you're sitting down there watching it, let's say with the family, and the scene comes on of wonderful, wonderful Karen Allen, always loved her, loved her and Robocop and No.
Gareth (53:46.636)
Yes.
Gareth (53:53.025)
adore her. I've been, have you been in her textile store? I've been in her textile store in Great Barrington, Massachusetts. I've been in it twice. She wasn't, she wasn't there either time. She does.
Jett Loe (53:59.634)
No kidding. She reti But she owns a tectile slu deckile. Good for her. She was always great. Robocop, blowout. no, blow up. Sorry.
Gareth (54:11.438)
Star, Star, no that's Nancy Allen. You're confusing your Allens. You're confusing your Allens. Yes. That's right. Nancy Allen's in 1941. I don't know if Nancy Allen has a textile store.
Jett Loe (54:14.929)
Yes. What did I who did I say? I said Karen Allen, star of Rados Lost Tark. No, Nancy Allen. When you
Jett Loe (54:25.858)
Karen Allen has a text. Well, I don't know what Nancy Allen is doing.
Gareth (54:27.466)
She does.
Jett Loe (54:30.813)
She has the lingerie store with Vasquez from Aliens. Yes.
Gareth (54:34.862)
Nancy Allen, was, I believe, married to Brian De Palma, which I know we're not going to talk about Disclosure Day, but it is the most De Palma of all of Spielberg's films.
Jett Loe (54:42.173)
man, I love you, but you you're missing a trick there. There is a de Spielberg made a d almost a De Palma homage, like almost like a gift to his friend De Palma. And that's a film that what's that? No, Minority Report. But we'll okay, we'll get into that. Nancy, when you're sitting down, Gareth, with the family watching 1941, and there's a scene where Nancy Allen and the guy from Animal House, whose name is Escaping, but it will come to me.
Gareth (54:53.558)
In disclosure day. Well, there's a, there's a, there's a.
Gareth (55:01.612)
Yes. Yes.
Jett Loe (55:11.663)
And they're in an airplane, and she can she can only have, and we're adults, we can say this, a climax if she's in a plane. That whole scene, do you feel comfortable watching that scene? Even if your family's not with you? Sitting there alone with a cup of coffee watching that scene. It's deeply, deeply uncomfortable.
Gareth (55:13.27)
I know who you're talking about.
Gareth (55:31.96)
Jet, are movies supposed to always leave us feeling comfortable?
Jett Loe (55:38.737)
They are not, but this feels like it's unintentionally uncomfortable. It's played for laughs. And boy doesn't work. Okay. On that note we're gonna leave it here. Are we leaving it here?
Gareth (55:42.759)
right.
Gareth (55:49.539)
But hopefully the same cannot be said of the film talk. Who knows? I've liked this episode.
I've liked this episode and you know to end on the note of Nancy Allen and Tim Matheson making the audience feel awkward. Is this going to notice any to end on? We are going to come back with there are 20 more films to your listener we've managed. We managed in the course of a 56 minute long. Well I don't know how long have we been recording for. A substantial episode. We've covered 14 of the 34 theatrically released Spielberg features prior to Disclosure Day not including the one that people
he directed but wasn't credited for directing and not including the... What is it? Is it a Portmanteau film? What's it called? Or an anthology film? Twilight Zone? Yeah.
Jett Loe (56:38.301)
The Twilight Zone, that's a th you could call well, not Portman. I would go with all it's an anthology picture.
Gareth (56:44.106)
OK, we're doing Dear Listener just for clarity. We're only doing the canonical Spielberg features, the ones that were credited to him, and we're not including Disclosure Day on this list of Spielberg's 34 films. We're going to do a separate episode about that later.
Jett Loe (57:00.955)
I think I think they know that. I think we covered that. But thank you for I feel
Gareth (57:03.362)
Did we say that already? The episode started so long ago, you can't blame me for not remembering.
Jett Loe (57:08.529)
Folks, we gotta take a break. We gotta get some coffee. tune in for part two, which will be coming, I imagine this should be released on Saturday, June thirteenth. And we're gonna disclose part two. I think we could probably it's twenty twenty Wow, what year to quote c Kyle Reese in Terminator yelling out what year to the cop. And it turns out well, actually I shouldn't say this bit, but it turns out that
Gareth (57:16.824)
sometime.
Gareth (57:20.738)
What year? What year?
Jett Loe (57:37.874)
When Kyle Reese arrives, it's it's it's May twelfth. It's my birthday. I'm gonna cut that out 'cause I don't want anybody to know the the date of my day. My my birthday. I'll cut that out. Okay, we're gonna end part two here, folks. We're gonna talk to you real soon. Gareth and I are gonna get some coffee and figure out how to make episode three hundred and thirty, not the three hundred and thirtieth ranked episode of the film talk. We'll keep talking to you real soon.
Gareth (57:56.398)
You
Gareth (58:08.59)
Let's just, we should really just keep rolling.
Jett Loe (58:10.973)
We're just gonna keep rolling. We're doing twenty one now, so we'll do a little previous Is it twenty one? No, you did your twenty one is nineteen forty one. I'm gonna do my twenty one. Okay.
Gareth (58:17.966)
No, Yeah, yeah. We're on to 20. No, you did your, did you not do your 21? Okay, all right. All right, so let's.
Jett Loe (58:23.383)
I did not. All right. I'll do the twenty one as a as a pre credit sequence.
Or not. Okay. I'll just never mind. All right, folks, we're back. This is part two. We're ranking all the Spielbergs as absurd as that can seem. applying metrics to art. We're gonna run the theme music in a minute. I'm Jet Lowe.
Gareth (58:32.27)
Okay, no no, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gareth (58:47.584)
I'm Gareth Higgins. The conversation never ends, although in the last episode it felt like that might be literally true.
Jett Loe (58:55.145)
It might when I say what my 21 is. We're gonna roll the theme music after we see your reaction. My 21 is a film, you'll probably be able to guess it. They had too much money. It's overproduced. It's a sweet little story. and it does have a cameo by someone that we talked about a little bit in the last episode. My 21 Gareth, what is it?
Gareth (59:17.934)
You're putting me on the spot. They had too much money and it's a sweet little story? Bridge of Spies?
Jett Loe (59:25.223)
Did you ever watch like a film like Danny Cannon's The Fable Months Danny Cannon's Judge Dredd? It looks like he's like they just have too much money. What are they doing? It's just too much. The Fable Month's the small little story about someone before they go into the wider world, but it looks like it cost two hundred million dollars.
Gareth (59:27.917)
the fablements. The fablements.
Gareth (59:43.63)
It's the third film on your list where we have vast chasms of divergence between us.
Jett Loe (59:50.824)
Vast chasms of divergence between us. that's my new stage play. it's a it's a two hander. that's what it sounds like, folks. This is the film talk. Thank you for listening. The music. Okay. Whenever you're ready.
Gareth (59:57.039)
That actually, that is an unproduced Tom Stoppard play. Yes.
Gareth (01:00:07.79)
All All right, dear listener, thank you for coming back. And indeed, if you are back, you must be a loyal listener. And so we thank you most especially as we move into what may be the.
The last, it's not a half, it's a two thirds of our rundown of Spielberg films. We're not, this is not a rundown, we're not running them down, he's great. We've got 20 films left to go. Shall we see if we can complete those in one episode, Jett? Holding the possibility tantalizingly out there that maybe we'll have to do a third episode.
Jett Loe (01:00:38.929)
Yes.
Jett Loe (01:00:46.589)
We're doing the it's c we're calling the sh we're changing the name of the show. So longer the the film talk is now Spielbergen with a little with a yeah, a little apostrophe end. We're sp no no no umla. Spielbergen. We're Spielbergen, like Snowboarden, like Amblin. but here's the thing that's gonna take us longer. If we're going through all these films, we need to come up with a unified theory of Spielberg.
Gareth (01:00:54.766)
an apostrophe Spielberg in Spielberg in right yes like Amblin like Amblin
Gareth (01:01:10.666)
Okay. Yes.
Jett Loe (01:01:10.723)
Right we're talking, we're having fun, we're joking, we're pros, we're cons, we're ranked list, baloney, what is this baloney? Where's the unified theory of Spielberg films that's gonna come out like in terms of his what is he really trying to do? What is he saying? What is his impact? I mean, I guess you don't need us for that. There's plenty of sub stacks.
Gareth (01:01:25.358)
He's trying to tell stories that elevate the human condition and do them with a level of visual craft that had not been applied to mainstream sensibilities before he came along. And he's trying to conceal within that really, really, really serious explorations about power, the monstrosity that people are capable of.
Jett Loe (01:01:30.684)
Bam.
Gareth (01:01:52.745)
and the fact that within each of our hands in any given moment is the capacity to choose something else. I think that's what he's trying to do.
Jett Loe (01:02:04.465)
Boy, I think you nailed it. Thank you for listening, folks. Don't forget you can go to our Patreon. Patreon.com slash the film talk. And we're also on Facebook at Facebook.com slash the film talk. Gareth is right. He's 100% right. This is a deeply political humanistic filmmaker who adores children and sees in them the promise it's withhold in all of us. If his films seem too sacred and sentimental, that's number twenty. What's your number twenty?
Gareth (01:02:06.892)
I've been Gareth Higginson.
Gareth (01:02:22.56)
Mm-hmm. we're talking about Disclosure Day again. We're talking about Disclosure Day again. Lincoln, which is my sort of negative caveat about Lincoln is this thing about how sometimes in the Kaminsky era, think some of Kaminsky's films, some of the films that Janusz Kaminsky has shot look...
amazing and some of them really don't. And Lincoln has this kind of metallic glowing sheen to it that I really was put off by. But that's a small complaint when you put it up against every single actor in this film, not just Daniel Day Lewis. Jeremy Strong in this film in a moderately cliched scene is still magnificent.
And here you have a film coming out in 2012 that you may remember this. They consciously chose to delay the release of this film so that it wouldn't happen before the 2012 presidential election, which I thought was a really unusual choice. It's a film about people talking and negotiating and compromising and deciding and looking inward at their own mistakes, looking inward at their own vulnerability.
and being willing to challenge other people to grow up for the sake of the common good. It really is a wonderful film. It just looks shiny and metallic to me. Linking at number 20.
Jett Loe (01:04:01.146)
I I agree. I agree with what you're saying, except for the look. I mean, they tried something and they gave it a look that no other film has. It has a very unusual look. It is a look that acknowledges the look of in the contemporary photographs. Yeah, the photographs of the time, but in the modern era, it's not trying to ape it. It's using that as a touchstone, as a a stepping off point, almost as if
Gareth (01:04:14.766)
Tint-type photography. Yeah.
Jett Loe (01:04:24.785)
The old work of the the photographic masters of late eighteen hundreds were sort of the muse to inspire the production look, the production design of the film. And I think it absolutely succeeds. Especially think about how early on in the picture, Lincoln tells his wi his wife Sally about a dream he had and this expressionistic scene. It looks like something out of silent cinema. I think that's really kind of extraordinary. So I'm gonna disagree with you on that one.
Gareth (01:04:45.006)
I think that's I think it's also lovely you think that Abraham Lincoln's wife was named Sally
Jett Loe (01:04:54.503)
Well she's played by Sally Field, who I wanted to be in the Sugarland Express. Was it was it Dolly? What was it? Hemmings? What was it? Mary. Look, these old Mary, Janet, Karen. I mean, come on, it's one of those. It's one of those.
Gareth (01:05:02.273)
Merry.
Gareth (01:05:07.726)
What's your number 20? What's your number 20?
Jett Loe (01:05:12.443)
But what is my number twenty? It is Empire of the Sun. Empire of
Gareth (01:05:17.006)
this is, this is so interesting to me. Four times now. What do we call it? The great chasm of divergence between us?
Jett Loe (01:05:25.797)
Yes. But yet we work together for a for something positive.
Gareth (01:05:28.984)
We do. We're a model of conciliation.
Jett Loe (01:05:34.482)
Listen folks, Gareth, dear listeners, it's always dicey, it's always a risk.
When you when you're watching a movie and you have the characters in that movie watching another movie, like they're going to the cinema, often it's on TV. Because if the film that you're watching isn't as good as the one that they're watching, you kind of want to watch that movie. And in Empire of the Sun, I sound flippant because maybe I am. Maybe there's no there there. Or maybe that's concealing a deep hurt that only could can become transfigured through the power of cinema. Who can say? But in Empire of the Sun, you've got that huge.
Reproduction of a Japanese poster fills the whole building of Gone with the Wind. And you and you're watching Empire of the Sun, you're like, okay. but into what Empire of the Sun or or Gone with the Wind? Gone with the I know you're saying Gone with the Wind. But it starts makes you think about Gone with the Wind. You may not like Gone with the Wind or say it's a good film, but the film moves and it is of a piece. Empire of the Sun, it's very clear that huge sections were were cut out of the prison camp.
Gareth (01:06:13.836)
Not a good movie.
Gareth (01:06:19.235)
Go on with the win.
Jett Loe (01:06:34.317)
element of the film. The film is structured in such a way that maybe it should be three and a half hours long with the intermission, or maybe three hours long. The prison cam sequence is supposed to be really long, much longer. And you can tell because you've got actors that ordinarily would carry the film by themselves, like Miranda Richardson, and she only has a couple lines, right? So a whole bunch of that stuff was cut out. So the film structurally is really ungainly. It does have incredible camera work that we expect from Spielberg. The use of extras is unbelievable, but it doesn't cohere as a film
Narratively, whereas Gone with the Wind does. Gone with the Wind is propulsion. You've got this, you know, lead up to the Civil War and you've got destruction and rebirth. When we get to the camp, the film just sort of stops because you're just watching one thing after another. There isn't a narrative drive. It's there in pieces, and maybe we cohered in a longer version with this notion of that that's throughout the movie of when do you have the information necessary? How do you make a decision?
Because the most dangerous time is the beginning and the ending. That sounds like something out of Dune, right? But because the whole problem is like when do we escape? It's okay living in the camp, but when things start getting towards the end, that's when things are dangerous. And the same thing, when things are beginning, that's when it's dangerous. And it just doesn't work because we're just watching these little vignettes of life in the camp. So it doesn't have that narrative propulsion that makes it as compelling, even as a a film is as gone with the wind. Does that make sense?
Gareth (01:07:57.793)
It does and I profoundly but lovingly disagree.
Jett Loe (01:08:05.693)
How do you feel about the John Malkovich character?
Gareth (01:08:09.902)
He's a character played by John Malkovich. How could I feel anything other than he's totally compelling?
Jett Loe (01:08:16.827)
That's the insight that I'm looking forward to. That's why I do the show.
Gareth (01:08:21.806)
You want to ask me what my number 19 is? My number 19 is Bridge of Spies, a courtroom thriller that isn't actually. may, people may remember it as a courtroom thriller, but the part that takes place in a court is over fairly early in the film. It's really a film about friendship between two individuals, Tom Hanks and Mark Rylance's character and friendship between nations and enmity.
Jett Loe (01:08:23.069)
What is your number nineteen, sir?
Gareth (01:08:51.47)
between nations. Really nice use of mirrors in the introduction of Mark Rylance's character. I know we're not talking about Disclosure Day, but Spielberg homage is himself in a scene in Disclosure Day with those mirrors too. It's a gorgeous film. There's nothing else to say about it other than the fact that it's at number 19 is yet more evidence that
Steven Spielberg is a really pretty good director when you think about it.
Jett Loe (01:09:26.939)
Well, it's always gonna be an important film to me, Gareth, because Bridge of Spies is the first film. in our two part Spiel rank all the Spielbergens Spielbergs, it's the first one where we both agree as number nineteen. This is the first time in our rundown I have Bridge of Spies at nineteen as well.
Gareth (01:09:41.562)
The divergent chasm has unvergent...
Jett Loe (01:09:49.32)
We'll see what's gonna happen with the rest of these. Yeah, I agree. It's a beautifully crafted film. And for other, you know, other directors, that would be like their number two or number three. but this guy's just, you know, cranking out bangers. so it's number 19. It's worth watching. It's a very low-key. He makes these sort of understated films that are still propulsive and work, films like Bridge of Spies. I put the post in there as well. I love the great shot of Hanks looking up from a train, looking just ordinary people living their lives, which is just great.
Gareth (01:09:50.806)
or virgin tint.
Gareth (01:10:16.894)
yeah. Evil, evil, evil Alan Alda. You don't hear that sentence every day.
Jett Loe (01:10:18.983)
Great. you don't need any dialogue for that.
Jett Loe (01:10:26.045)
Well you do if you're watching the Aviator, the great Martin Scresese picture. Alan Alda can do evil like nobody's business, which is why of course he's so great as supplying somebody with warmth and humanity.
Gareth (01:10:35.564)
I think we should issue the caveat we mean fictional evil.
Jett Loe (01:10:39.525)
I don't know Alonaldo. Wouldn't that be terrible if it turns out he was a t terrible person?
Gareth (01:10:41.751)
I think Alan Alda is clearly, he's clearly one of the most human of all humans.
Jett Loe (01:10:49.403)
Wow, that's a I mean, there's a lot of humans. That's going out on a limb there. Do you Al haven't met Al in all the but he's very he's got a lot of warmth.
Gareth (01:10:55.252)
No, listen to his podcast. He seems seems he seems lovely. He seems absolutely lovely. Can I do my number 18 and number 17 together? Because there's a reason there's a reason and I'm going to aim to justify it. Right. And I'll tell you why. And maybe.
Jett Loe (01:10:58.636)
he's got a podcast. Who doesn't?
Jett Loe (01:11:06.082)
sure. Eight Okay. Let's do it.
Is it Amistad in the colour purple?
Gareth (01:11:14.9)
very interesting that you should say that. So my number 18 is a film of supreme craft that a lot of people point to as their favorite Spielberg film, but I'm putting it at number 18 because it really is in places racist and it doesn't seem to understand that or try not to be. And my number 17 is another film of supreme craft that most people forgot that even made and it really tries not to be racist, but it might
end up being somewhat exoticizing of the people of color who are in its cast. So my number 18 is Raiders of the Lost Ark and my number 17 is Amistad.
Jett Loe (01:11:57.148)
Wow. Wow. This is a Raiders of Lost Arc at number eighteen.
Gareth (01:12:05.036)
Yes. Sorry.
Jett Loe (01:12:06.599)
You know, a lot a lot of people would put that at at number one.
Gareth (01:12:09.72)
They would, I know. I don't have to be right. I don't have to be right. I don't have to be right about anything actually. I'm, I'm z-
Jett Loe (01:12:12.635)
You're saying you're s you're don't fall into despair now, just because you made a mistake about Raiders of the Lost Art.
Gareth (01:12:21.294)
I think Raiders of the Lost Ark is fantastic and I think, you know, from this remove, and I'm not sure what Spielberg himself would think about this, it really is, let's just say at the very least, ethnically condescending to non-white people.
Jett Loe (01:12:44.743)
So is the problem that the pulp source material has so embedded in its DNA the exoticization of the other because all these pulp adventures took place in a time in which we don't have the modern communication, we don't have satellites, what have you. So going to the jungles of Africa or to Mars like an Edgar Rice Burroughs has this inherent colonialist vibe. Is that what we're talking about here? You just can't escape it because it's part of it. To to remove that would neuter it.
Gareth (01:12:56.364)
Yeah, sure.
Gareth (01:13:01.528)
Yes.
Gareth (01:13:09.422)
Well, yeah, so, you can't ask it. No, can revise it. There's plenty of revisionist versions of that. by revisionism, I don't mean pretending that the source material wasn't racist. mean, just because the source material was racist doesn't mean we have to the story the same way this time around.
Jett Loe (01:13:31.697)
Well, there's versions, you know, where people will do something like wicked, like let's tell it from from somebody else's vantage point, or is it is it Wuthering Heights or Jane Eyre, you know, done from the the viewpoint of the wife? So I guess you could do a version of Raiders told from the the vantage point of the swordsman who gets shot in the in the stomach. Like what's his story? Does he maybe he's got a family? He's
Gareth (01:13:37.283)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (01:13:52.076)
He's also played, I mean, he's played by a white stuntman in Blackface.
Jett Loe (01:13:59.78)
Is is that true? Is that the same is that Pat Roach? Is that who plays him? Like 'cause Pat Roach plays like the bad henchman in multiple roles, right? 'Cause he also plays the guy that he fights on the wing and then he's wears a turban and and Temple of J Temple of Doom and then he's also in
Gareth (01:14:02.476)
Yes. Yes.
Gareth (01:14:09.527)
Yeah.
Gareth (01:14:13.058)
Well, I do think it would be really interesting to have the opening sequence of Raiders of the Lost Ark be followed by an entire movie about how the indigenous Peruvian tribe feel about their idol being stolen.
Jett Loe (01:14:28.977)
I'd be kinda you'd be upset at Belloc, right? If you were the Jovitos. Like what's what's going on here? You know, there's the this is so a lot of power imbalances here. Well, we're gonna talk more about Raiders because it's certainly not my number 18. I'll do
Gareth (01:14:33.23)
Well, see ya.
Gareth (01:14:40.418)
Number 18. What's your number 18, my dear friend?
Jett Loe (01:14:44.723)
my number eighteen is the color purple. And again, beautiful craft. And this is a weird one, folks, because I'm old enough to remember when the color purple came out. And part of the whole, I wouldn't say marketing push, but certainly the discussion, the critical discussion, the audience discussion around it was like, Spielberg's good good you know, he's gonna do a serious film now. So this is a big deal. He's gonna make a serious film for adults. What's so odd now looking back is like
Gareth (01:14:49.175)
Mmm.
Gareth (01:14:55.5)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (01:15:10.577)
Wait a minute, but he made the Sugarland Express. He made Jaws and he made Close Encounters. Those are films for adults. And for some reason that was for his seventies work is forgotten in the eighties. You know, after nineteen forty one, I guess the success of Raiders and the success of E.T. to people somehow thought he only made films for kids, completely forgetting how adult, and traumatic and and the emotional depth of films like Close Encounters and and Jaws. Very, very odd. Color purple, it's
Whew, I'm going, I'm making these noises. It's a r it's a a really interesting film, but I don't feel I you can tell watching it. I had to look up, you know, I put it on cold. I hadn't seen it. This is one of the 10 films I hadn't seen before. And I have not read that the Alice Walker book. I know it's a book of letters, right? So it's like Dracula in that regard. But, you know, it was made, I had to look up when it was made.
Gareth (01:15:56.428)
And had you read it? Had you read Alice Walker's novel?
Gareth (01:16:05.454)
It's like Dracula only in that regard. It's the greatest American novel. That's what it is. But I don't have to be right.
Jett Loe (01:16:09.755)
Well, some people may not know that.
Jett Loe (01:16:16.743)
Color Purple? Wow, let me put that on my list. How would you rank Alice Walk, Greatest American novels? That's the next podcast. the the thing, you know, Color Purple is that I watched it and I'm going, what does this remind me of? And I kept going back to Temple of Doom. And I guess he made that the year before. So it's full of what almost feels like Temple of Doom cartoonish comedy slapstick. We've got a character that keeps falling through a roof that doesn't quite work. And the question I kept asking myself, dear listener, I'd be curious what you have to say out there, is that.
If it was made by somebody else that wasn't using the camera in in the way that he is, if it was shot in a more naturalistic style, less on Hitchcockan style, right? Where he used the camera to tell the the narrative with composition. If it was shot imagine like if Peter if we're talking about white guys making movies of of the Alice Walker book, like someone like Peter Weir, I'd be very interested what what what he would do with this be I think about his films like with Harrison Ford like Witness, and of course Picnic and Hanging Rock. There it may have
Gareth (01:16:58.36)
you
Jett Loe (01:17:15.245)
suited the subject matter well. So the only reason it's not higher, it's very well made film is because I'm not sure Spielberg was the right guy to do it. Does that make sense, Gareth?
Gareth (01:17:22.222)
It does make sense. really interesting. actually, you know, Alice Walker, who I've had the good fortune, I guess, to have spent some time with, she came in and spoke at a couple of festivals that I was involved in running. I actually have spent some time in substantial conversation with her and she said two things.
about why she was happy for Spielberg to direct the film. Turn out what happened was he wrote her a letter. He said he'd read the book three times in two days. And he he was, you know, very humble and asking, could he come and see her and talk about the possibility of making the went to see her with Quincy Jones? And she said that her daughter took her to see E.T. because E.T. was out around the time that Spielberg was was asking for her approval.
to have him direct it and that her feelings about ET were first of all, this guy knows what he's doing. He can make a film. And secondly, he can make people fall in love with the character of ET. don't want to misrepresent her words on that. And she said that the colour purple needs to make you fall in love with someone who might feel distant from you. And I think she's actually talking about what turned out to be the biggest flaw in the film.
And that is that the character of Mr. Albert, Danny Glover's character in the book is strongly redeemed in a way that in the film, it's only lip service is paid to that. And I think that's really a pity.
The rest of the film, I feel differently to you. The Chasm of Divergence has opened up once again. It has reopened. It has reopened. What matters to me about The Color Purple is that this is a film about somebody who suffers some of the most unimaginable torments that an individual can suffer at the hands of other people who should have cared for her.
Jett Loe (01:19:11.023)
Is it reopened? That's where the that's where that's where the holy grail the holy grail's fallen into the chasm.
Gareth (01:19:30.41)
And not only does she survive this, actually evolves and becomes a healer herself. Now, you can portray that in a more or less substantive way. I think the colour purple almost gets there. The problem being what I've just mentioned that in the book itself, the book's intention is the possibility of redemption for everybody. the film doesn't quite get there when it comes to the character.
but it's not my number 18.
Jett Loe (01:20:02.887)
Well, you know, you told me about the the ending of the book. You and I had a conversation before. Oddly enough, it's not like we planned the show as you can tell. these two parts but we did. I I I think we have. I'll have to look that up. it's possible we've done three hundred and thirty one, thirty-two shows at this point. plus the bonus episodes.
Gareth (01:20:09.152)
No, we've never spoken before.
Jett Loe (01:20:23.643)
The you told me about how Mr. Is Redeemed or his redemption scenes in the book with him sewing on the you know on the porch sewing some pants. And when when you that would have been incredible. That would have been incredible, and it is amazing that that's not in the film because I think that would if if that had been included, that would have if they had strengthened that arc of redemption, brought
Gareth (01:20:30.87)
Yeah, sewing multicolored trousers, I mean, it's a very interesting challenge to aggressive masculinity.
Jett Loe (01:20:50.203)
Mr. More into community as you described the book to me. I think that would have just been amazing. it's intro I'm curious why. I wonder if they shot that and it just wasn't working. I'm curious what what happened there. You know, it's kinda y you know, I think about the close ups of of Whoopi Goldberg, it is kind of amazing. I maybe I should move it up. I feel I should move it up now, away from my eighteen because it does she is extraordinary. Whoopi Goldberg, you know, and introducing Whoopi Goldberg.
Gareth (01:21:00.365)
Yeah.
It is a very strange choice.
Gareth (01:21:14.316)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jett Loe (01:21:15.685)
It's extraordinary. And I will end on this because I I I just remembered this. You mentioned Quincy Jones and you know, the amazing, prolific, incredibly successful, what is it his daughter said in the Rashida Jones that documentary she made about him. It's like, is there anything you're not you haven't been successful at? And I think he said marriage. So an incredibly successful music producer did thrill and all this stuff. And I seem to recall one of our earlier shows. I pointed out that if you're watching in the heat of the night,
Gareth (01:21:32.942)
You
Jett Loe (01:21:40.862)
the Norman Jewison directed Sidney Poitier starring Rod Steiger, one best picture. There's a scene that's made in the late 60s, right? There's a scene in which we have the bad guys, the white racists are always driving a Cadillac with big fins. And whenever you see the Cadillac with big fins go, you know, past the camera, Quincy Jones' music goes, dunno. And you realize, my God, John Williams, maybe he was Johnny Williams at that time from his earlier scores. Like he saw that. He must have seen it, or Quincy lent it to him, or
Whether he did it unconscious consciously or not, he then incorporated, you know, the idea of the fin and that little musical hook into Jaws. And here's the thing, folks. My hand to God in the color purple, I'm watching it. And then at certain scenes of, the possibility of joy or redemption, there's a little theme that comes up. And you know what that theme is, Gareth? It's Jurassic Park.
Quincy Jones did one of the Jurassic Park has two main themes, and one of them he came up with in the color purple. So I would love to know the relationship between him and John Williams. Like, do they share this stuff back and forth?
Gareth (01:22:39.502)
Which, okay so.
So is it the da da da da da da or the ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba? Okay.
Jett Loe (01:22:46.747)
Yeah, it's that. Yeah. No, no, it's the first one. No, it's the first one. Watch the color purple again. Keep that in mind and you'll go, my goodness. Color purple, my eighteen. Okay, what's your seventeen?
Gareth (01:22:58.926)
Well, my 17 is Amistad, which, another another courtroom thriller that really tries to say some very serious things about unimaginably awful suffering and at the time was critiqued for potentially kind of fetishizing or exoticizing black bodies. And it is not for me to to.
to evaluate those critiques other than to... So what I'll say is it's a... It's kind of amazing to me that people used to make movies like this for a mainstream audience in a multiplex.
It may well be. I know we're not talking about Disclosure Day. I know we're not talking about Disclosure Day, but I think it's possible that people may be about to start making films like this for the multiplex. Films of ideas. Films with genuinely thoughtful, nuanced performances. Well written about things that matter. What's your 17?
Jett Loe (01:23:41.789)
Do you think that's moved?
Jett Loe (01:24:07.143)
Well, I'll just I'll just say you know, one one one thing here. I think also well I'll say two things. One the idea of you know movies about ideas. I obviously a lot of this move to television, right? 'Cause there are I you know, there are TV shows that are about ideas. And I can't speak as we know from part one of the show. I haven't seen Amistad, so I'm of course going to revert to to one of my favorite people. we have to go to the Tractatus Proposition Seven, when Wittgenstein said, Where of one cannot speak?
Thereof one must be silent. So I can't respond to on this that I've got to see that again. I'll watch it. We'll do it as a bonus episode. Number 17, Duel.
Gareth (01:24:45.545)
Chasm?
Jett Loe (01:24:48.163)
wow, you're you're much higher for the duel. is your your num number seventeen?
Gareth (01:24:50.382)
or not, I was introducing a little bit of suspense there.
Jett Loe (01:24:59.857)
Listen, you look at you look at dual folks, w why is it high? Why is it at where it at w where it is? You know, look at that year, nineteen seventy one, Spielberg made dual. Yeah, and then he also directed like four or five other T V movies the same year. It's unbel it's unbelievable.
Gareth (01:25:11.744)
I know, I know, with Elizabeth Taylor. With Joan Crawford and Colombo and all the rest. Well, Jewel's great. And Jewel's really sinister. It's really sinister.
Jett Loe (01:25:21.787)
Yeah, dual I there's
It's you know, I feel like there is an exploration, you know, where and maybe this kind of goes back to the you think about colonialism and the Raiders movies and that pulp thing of the exoticism of the other that somehow there's you know, you look at the heart of darkness and the madness with the natives. And Duel to me feels that way. It feels like in the absence of reason is madness, because there's no reason given in in
Jaws, you could say, there's no reason given. Well, no, you there is because it's a it's an evolved predator. That's it. Jaws is just doing Bruce the Shark is just doing its job. We don't have that in duel. We have no idea why this truck is pursuing Dennis Weaver. I don't know. He wasn't happy with Weaver's performance and Touch of Evil. I don't know. I liked Weaver and Touch of Evil by the way. The Orson Wells film made one year before Psycho, kind of anticipating Psycho. He plays the a guy that runs a motel.
Gareth (01:26:11.038)
I feel sorry for you.
Jett Loe (01:26:18.391)
but it's a brilliant made for TV picture that was so good, so propulsive, so well made that it was then released theatrically. It's why it's my number seventeen. It's a great it's a great thriller.
Gareth (01:26:26.774)
And the noise of the truck, spoiler here, the noise of the truck going off the edge of the cliff. You know how that was repurposed in a later Spielberg film, don't you? This. Nope, the sound of the shark having been blown up and sinking down to the bottom of the sea is a slowed down version of the same sound effect of the truck going over the side of the cliff in Jewel.
Jett Loe (01:26:36.785)
Tell me. Not the tank going off the cliff in in Indiana Jones in the last crusade.
Jett Loe (01:26:52.797)
Well, that also shows you how Spielberg can bring films under budget. 'Cause that's thrifty, right? You don't have to spend the time making a new sound effect. I'm serious. I'm completely serious. What's your number sixteen? We're powering through.
Gareth (01:26:56.844)
That is absolutely thrifty.
Not a thrifty film, is Saving Private Ryan, which I used to think Saving Private Ryan was kind of...
let's say cheesily nationalistic, but it's really not. It's what Saving Private Ryan is doing is it's honouring the sacrifice of people who died for the sake of others. The challenge I find with it is it comes a little too close to saying that participating in a war might be the most noble thing that any man can do. it is a film about men. beyond that, it's a really important film, one of the first films to
to be seen by veterans as having truly represented the horror of combat on D-Day and a propulsive story with genuine horror, unlike a lot of films that purport to be anti-war films, which are too entertaining for their own good. Saving Private Ryan is ugly a lot of the time, but it does have that kind of thing. Like I said, that
suggests the best way to have a noble life is to be in a war. A philosophy that is negated by one of his greatest films, one, a film that you've already repudiated by having it in, I don't know, 57. War Horse was number 57 or something for you, wasn't it? The truly, War Horse is the truly anti-war Spielberg film. Anyway, Saving Private Ran, number 16. What have you got at number 16?
Jett Loe (01:28:28.645)
It wasn't even on the list.
Get this horse get get this horse out of my house. do you feel like we're going on a bit, should we split it into three parts? Or power through?
Gareth (01:28:43.874)
I think that's, I think that, I think, how about we go to number 13 and then we'll do a third part with 12 films on it. And I think, I think in fairness to anybody who has a life beyond listening to TFT, that's what we should do.
Jett Loe (01:28:48.604)
Okay.
Jett Loe (01:29:03.729)
I'm not sure well, we may have already talked everything out though, in the in the top ten possibly. I'm not sh I'm not sure.
Gareth (01:29:08.684)
We might have, we might have. But yeah, let's go to number 12. Let's go to number 13.
Jett Loe (01:29:12.039)
We'll go to we'll go to number twelve and then we'll do a s a separate top ten.
Gareth (01:29:18.19)
Well, there's 11 after 12. Unlike, and I know we're not talking about disclosure day. I know we're not talking about disclosure day, but math.
Jett Loe (01:29:21.585)
You know, listen. Un unlike a character in disclosure day, math is not my strong not my strong suit. My number sixteen. number sixteen is Munich. Huge canvas, epic film that that goes from the large to the small. How do you feel about my num my numbering here? Putting Munich at sixteen. I think you put it higher.
Gareth (01:29:32.13)
Yes.
Gareth (01:29:41.794)
Divergent. Divergent. No, it's only... It's not my number one. It's not my number one.
Jett Loe (01:29:44.925)
That's like your number one.
Jett Loe (01:29:52.2)
Okay. But you love your your Eric Bana. Huge fan there. You loved him in the Hulk. Actually I know you did love him in the Hulk and Ann Ann Lang Aang Ann Lan Lang. How is Ann Lang doing? in Aang Lee's The Hulk six sixteen.
Gareth (01:29:59.127)
It's one of the most important films.
Gareth (01:30:07.18)
The Hulk, great film. Great film. Munich is one of the most important films ever made about the futility of revenge. number, what are we, we're 15? Are we 15? Jurassic Park.
Jett Loe (01:30:17.319)
Fifteen. Fifteen. I think we should do fifteen and then we're gonna close this show and then we'll do that. We'll do let's get to fifteen. Then we'll do part three.
Gareth (01:30:22.976)
It's all dear listening. You hear the spontaneity of it, the intuition, the initiative where we're deciding things as we go, which is what Spielberg was doing. Wasn't he editing Jurassic Park at night while he was shooting Schindler's List during the day? He's a reasonably good filmmaker. Why does, why does...
Jett Loe (01:30:31.537)
Where I disagree with Gareth and say, No, we're gonna do it this way.
Jett Loe (01:30:41.041)
I think that's what they say, right? So they whatever the technology they had at the time. Yeah. It's pretty good, folks.
Gareth (01:30:50.286)
Why does anybody not think that he's one of the greatest filmmakers in the history of cinema? What are the substantial reasons that hold water? I can't think of them. It's all based on a superficial appreciation of what his films actually do and what they are about.
Jett Loe (01:31:03.344)
All I can tell you
Jett Loe (01:31:10.397)
You know, I my my threads is full of people saying, disclosure day is terrible. I walked out awful. You go on IMDB and people are giving it one stars, two stars saying it's terrible. So what I'm saying here is when it comes to people, I have no idea. I have no idea. But you know who does know people? Steven Spielberg. So my number fifteen is Lincoln. I guess you can kind of categorize some of his films as like teaching films like
The script seems to be written for like a high school audience. You saving private Ryan is that way too, in terms of like the complexities of relationships. It feels like these are educational motion pictures to tell people like, Can you believe this is what happened? You have to understand this so that we can move forward. And Lincoln feels that way to me as a teaching film. I like we said in the yeah part one, or like I said, I thought it has an extraordinary visual look that I am all in with. I think they created a created an amazing world visually for that film. I would be higher on my list except for the very first scene.
Which to me again does feel like a teaching moment in which you have these two soldiers, one black, one white, and one knows you know, the constitution and one doesn't. Like that is so obvious, so on the nose. It's it's poor to me. I would l just watch it, leave that scene out, folks. If you put your if you put your what is it, your cube, what are we watching films on now? Like some sort of gl glowing cube like you have in Zardoz. If you're watching it on the cube, folks, I would cut out that that first scene. But for me, the film really works. Daniel Day Lewis, of course, is extraordinary.
Gareth (01:32:23.811)
Mm.
Jett Loe (01:32:40.275)
Sally Field, who should have starred in Sugarland Express, is is fantastic. And also so is everybody else. When I say everybody else, it's because Gareth said before, everybody's in this movie. It's extraordinary. He's in the feet, a great scene where he takes off his wig. You're at home. You can relax with your with your wife, your loved one.
Gareth (01:32:50.798)
Did you mention Tommy Lee Jones?
Gareth (01:32:57.102)
great wig Hal Holbrook Hal Holbrook David Strathairn Jared Harris they're all in it I
Jett Loe (01:33:02.041)
Everybody's in the film. I think you're in the film, aren't you? Don't you play one of the congressmen that wants to that wants to stop the emancipation of of of folks?
Gareth (01:33:11.598)
That's... You know, I hope not. I hope not, but, you know, we have to learn to be self-critical.
Jett Loe (01:33:19.101)
Well it's a blink if you miss blink if you and you'll miss some cameo by Gareth Higgins. Folks, we've had fun doing the show. We're gonna stop here. We've gotta take a break. I gotta make some coffee. Gareth I'm sure we'll we'll also have a libation of some kind. you're you're go for a walk, you gotta s you gotta stretch.
Gareth (01:33:23.246)
you
Gareth (01:33:31.276)
I need to go for a walk, actually. I need to go for a walk and breathe in the air, calm myself down about the chasm of divergence. Two part play by Stoppard opening at the Old Vic soon posthumously. Did you mention that Stoppard wrote Emperor of the Sun?
Jett Loe (01:33:46.577)
That's how good Stopper it is, even from beyond the grave.
Jett Loe (01:33:52.613)
I I think it w it was was it Stoppard? Yeah, I think he's yeah, yeah.
Gareth (01:33:55.363)
Yeah, no, was asking Bruce McGill. Bruce McGill is in Lincoln. Jackie Early, Tim Blake Nelson, Gloria Rubin, Michael Stuhlbarg, like Stephen McKinley Henderson. just like just looking at the pictures of the cast of Lincoln is a great experience. John Hawkes.
Jett Loe (01:33:59.866)
Everybody's in Lincoln.
Jett Loe (01:34:15.613)
Once again, for the record, legally, everybody in the Screen Actors Guild in SAG is in Lincoln. Folks, if you enjoy the show, don't forget you can go to our Facebook page at facebook.com slash the film talk. And we're on Patreon at patreon.com slash the film talk. You know, we're listener supported. So if you enjoyed the show and want to listen to our bonus episodes or be part of the community, you can do that, folks. We've enjoyed talking. We've got a few more films to go. We'll do that for part three.
Gareth (01:34:43.438)
14. I think 14, yes?
Jett Loe (01:34:46.491)
Well, you know, if you want to be pedantic. Yes. Folks, I love talking with Gareth. I I rib him. I I joke with him because I'm envious that he was in Lincoln.
Gareth (01:34:49.634)
you
Gareth (01:34:54.892)
It's a dance. It's a dance. in one of Spielberg's absolute greatest top 10 films, West Side Story, it's a dance.
Jett Loe (01:34:57.51)
I've been jet low.
Jett Loe (01:35:04.615)
Boy, we're gonna get into it on the next show. I've been Jet Lowe. We'll keep talking.
Gareth (01:35:07.798)
I've been Gareth Higgins. Until next time.
Jett Loe (01:35:12.743)
For part three.