Hello friends, who knew Higgins and Loe would have so much to talk about in regards to the filmography of Steven Spielberg? I suppose we should have realized. In this ep we soldier on and discuss some of our favorite Spielberg pictures, as well as reflect on the magnificent AU HASARD BALTHAZAR, Tom Stoppard’s INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE script polish and Gareth’s love of WAR HORSE. Enjoy.
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Jett Loe (04:35.592)
You know what, Gareth? I have to admit, we're not experts in everything. So before we get to the theme music and the calls for action, Patreon and all that stuff, I just have to admit, you know, I watch a lot of movies. You do too. Have you seen this this little this little show, this little franchise thing called the Star Wars? Have you seen Star Wars?
Gareth (04:56.682)
In French, it's called la guerre des étoiles. Yes, I mean, it sounds very interesting. You know, it could be. Yeah. Is it? Are these like, you know, ego conflicts between celebrities? It's about it's about people having arguments with each other on the red carpet in Cannes.
Jett Loe (05:00.508)
Is that true?
Jett Loe (05:04.71)
Star Wars is interesting.
Gareth (05:18.594)
You're shaking your head. Dear listener, dear listener, wish you
Jett Loe (05:19.816)
I might cut that out, yeah. I'm cutting now. This is all going. This is this is all g I'm not no, this is all we gotta we gotta move quickly. We gotta move quickly.
Gareth (05:25.703)
Alright, alright. Quickly, quickly, quickly.
Jett Loe (05:30.704)
And Star Wars is interesting. But that's not just my opinion. I thought, Gareth, we need an expert to talk the Star Wars phenomenon and to talk about the a specialist if you were as you were if you were
Gareth (05:37.386)
specialist, a specialist.
If you will. Keep it.
Jett Loe (05:44.528)
Yes, a specialist, someone that knows the Star Wars in and out, and with the new Mando and Gregorian what's it called? Grog Gregorian chant and
Gareth (05:51.023)
Mando and the Gregorian Enchanters, yes it's a film set in a monastery. But where could we possibly find a specialist expert in Star Wars? There couldn't be one.
Jett Loe (05:56.369)
Yeah, it was big. Enya has a has a cameo appearance. we thought we'd
Jett Loe (06:05.508)
looking at the online discourse, I think there's nobody better, dear listener, than to get friend of the show, Dan Zare from CoffeewithKenobi.com, Star Wars expert, to discuss the Star Wars phenomenon and the Gregorian chant fad of the 90s. Ladies and gentlemen, let's get right into it.
Gareth (06:11.213)
Yes.
Jett Loe (06:32.668)
Okay, now special thanks to Dan Zare of Coffee with Kenobi dot com for for being on the show. That was a lovely a little bit of discourse, Gareth. I enjoyed it, did you?
Gareth (06:41.846)
I was going to say lovely too, and I think we we should interview more dance on the show. have a good track record of interviewing dance. Maybe only science fiction dance though. You may remember we talked to Dan Richter, moonwatcher, the ape from 2001, the guy that played the ape, the guy that played the ape and who also lived with John Lennon and Yoko Ono for four years. But other than that, nothing of interest in his life. Yes.
Jett Loe (06:56.141)
the g the guy that played the ape that threw the bone up in two thousand and one.
Jett Loe (07:08.316)
You know, I will correct myself there. Didn't Steven Spielberg say in a in a podcast who's promoting Disclosure Day that they're not apes? He called them proto humans.
Gareth (07:18.434)
Well, he would know.
Jett Loe (07:20.026)
And on that note, I like to think of myself as a proto human, someone that's trying, trying, perhaps through the mirror the the the medium of podcast to become a better person. So I want to say thank you so much, Gareth, for for being on the show with me and for talking with Dan. Folks, don't forget, this is a listener supported endeavors you can go and support, get our bonus episodes at patreon.com slash the film talk. We're also at Facebook at Facebook.com slash the film talk. Gareth, I enjoyed talking with you. I enjoyed talking with Dan. Thank you so much. And thanks to the listeners too.
Gareth (07:23.059)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Gareth (07:51.736)
We'll see you next time. I've been Gareth Higgins.
Jett Loe (07:55.6)
I've been Jet Lowe. We'll keep talking.
Gareth (07:58.594)
in the future.
Jett Loe (08:03.27)
All right. Let's get let's let's do the Let's do the
Gareth (08:08.726)
It's fine. So we got, did we get down to number 15? We're at number 14 by my account. Okay. Okay. Yep.
Jett Loe (08:14.096)
Yes, we're at number fourteen. Okay, right. Okay, right. In the future. Actually no, Gareth Star Wars doesn't take place in the future. Take it takes place takes place long, long, long time ago. Anyway, folks, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you soon. Okay.
Gareth (08:23.054)
I was thinking that. was thinking that. I was thinking that.
Jett Loe (08:34.568)
Three, two, one. Gareth, we're gonna get to the theme music and the calls to action and all that good stuff, but first I have to ask you a question. Gareth in thank you, please be honest with me. Gareth, have you and I know this is a tough one, it's a tough question.
Gareth (08:42.816)
I'm open to all questions.
Gareth (08:48.672)
I'm hold on, hold on, hold on, your premise, I wanna interrupt your premise. You feel, you feel the, yes, you, we won't, but you feel the need to ask me to be honest as if you somehow think I won't be?
Jett Loe (08:52.56)
This is before the theme music. We can't let this stretch out forever.
Jett Loe (09:00.444)
Well, this is a very heavy duty question. You may never have been asked this before and it's gonna ca yes, you gotta bear your soul. Here's the question. Gareth, have you ever been wrong about something?
Gareth (09:02.378)
Okay, I appreciate you preparing me for it. Okay.
Gareth (09:12.27)
Probably even in the introduction to this show already, I've been wrong at least twice.
Jett Loe (09:20.068)
He's right. Here's the thing, Gareth. We're doing the all the ranking of the Spielberg movies, right? I'm familiar with all the Spielberg, seen them all multi Spiel were Spielbergen. I've seen a whole bunch of them, all of them, almost all of them, multiple times. So when we did parts one and two of our three-parter Spielberg ranking show, I did not re-watch them before ranking them. But I was so interested and had such a good time ranking them and talking about the Spielbergen with you.
Gareth (09:25.26)
Yes, Spielbergen.
Gareth (09:32.099)
Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Gareth (09:43.918)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (09:46.653)
That I then, since recording our last episode, part two, have now started going back and watching them. What does this mean? My ranking is all wrong. It's completely wrong. It's like I was trying to pull the numbers out of a bingo cage. The the numbers are meaningless.
Gareth (09:54.383)
I fear I know what this means.
Hehehehehe
Well, that certainly sets this episode up with appeal. That's like trying to get somebody to watch the HBO Westworld series after it was canceled.
Jett Loe (10:17.394)
Well trying to get him to watch like season three. Like start with season three, it's the best one.
Gareth (10:21.408)
So that was season three that has like recast somebody in a major role and undone a plot point.
Jett Loe (10:29.904)
I have deliberately not gone back and rewatched either the terminal or hook. Because what if they're my number one and two? What if I become a hook truther?
Gareth (10:36.95)
Yeah, I gotta tell you something. I started watching Hook again last night. yes.
Jett Loe (10:42.405)
no.
Jett Loe (10:46.738)
Well we'll see where it ranks. Ladies and gentlemen, it's the film talk.
Gareth (10:53.312)
I'm sorry, I don't want to be cancel or, you know, I think, ladies, I genuinely do think a lot of trans folk feel excluded by the term, ladies and gentlemen. So I know it's know it's inadvertent.
Jett Loe (11:01.319)
What what I
Jett Loe (11:10.726)
Okay. I did did I say did I say that again? Okay. well.
Gareth (11:12.62)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, and I think you could extend it ladies and gentlemen and other gendered siblings like and be genuinely inclusive. not, I'm not trying to be. You are a kind person. My influence is rubbing off. So, so yeah, I just, I'm sure the case is the same, the trans and non-binary people you know. Yeah. Yeah.
Jett Loe (11:21.68)
Does that sound like me?
I tried. Thank you for thank you for. Thank you for that.
Jett Loe (11:36.264)
I'll just say folks. Is folks okay? Is folks acceptable? Is that okay? Is
Gareth (11:40.302)
In this world, on this day when we celebrate freedom, some freedom this is. Folks, it's okay as long as you spell it with an X.
Jett Loe (11:49.98)
That's what about with two Fs? AKA North Sea hijack.
Gareth (11:53.263)
O-L-K-E-S, much, folks is a much better title. And it's spelled out with like scare quotes. It's actually called folks, not folks. Okay, all right. So you wanna say folks and away we go.
Jett Loe (12:04.38)
I've never s I wanna see that. I keep trying to see it and you it's difficult to get hold of. It's very difficult.
Jett Loe (12:12.538)
I wasn't going to but since you're insisting, because I'm offending somebody by using the word ladies and gentlemen.
Gareth (12:16.682)
Aha, I know, I know, what's ever happened to trans and non-binary people that they deserve to be consciously included?
Jett Loe (12:21.594)
What
Jett Loe (12:27.922)
So alright. If I say it okay, is it's because it's it's compart it's it's it's in a in a little a little box. I could say something like, I'm gonna go to the ladies' room. But but it's because there's only two choices, ladies and gentlemen, and there's so much life is so much richer. It's richer. I'll go focus. I'm gonna do it because you're insistent. I'm doing for you.
Gareth (12:35.864)
I-I-I-I-
Yeah, it is...
Gareth (12:45.57)
Yeah, I genuinely think if you, in, you say folks or say ladies, gentlemen and other gendered siblings and trans and non-binary people will feel more included. I'm saying this from the perspective that Brian has, Brian identifies as gender expansive now, okay? So, know, and so gender expansive. There's another way of saying non-binary. So, all right. Don't include any of that on the show.
Jett Loe (12:53.89)
I am not gonna say that. I'm not I d wh
Jett Loe (13:03.834)
I understand. Is gender what now?
Jett Loe (13:10.32)
I gotcha. I'll say f I I'm with ya. I'm sub just I'm gonna it's it's a special bonus episode. Did you say gender exclusive or expansive? Expansive, gotcha. That's interesting. We could do that with other it's interesting. Okay. Can we do that? Do people it's like what do we do with ethnicity? We do the same th do we say do we say white?
Gareth (13:16.822)
Yeah, well, it'd good to... Gender expansive. Yeah, yeah. So, be interesting to do.
Gareth (13:34.881)
If we mean white.
Jett Loe (13:36.101)
I say Anglo here in New Mexico.
Gareth (13:38.092)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah, all right.
Jett Loe (13:40.484)
I'm just think I'm off on the tangent now. Okay. Folks. Okay, I'm saying folks. What am I saying? I'm saying folks. Okay, all right. And three, two, one. Folks, let's get right into it. Welcome to the film talk.
Gareth (13:46.196)
Folks!
Jett Loe (13:56.358)
No matter
How you identify your genitals whatever it is you gotta do. Gender expansive. No, you told me that before. I we we did we had this conversation before. Gender expansive.
Gareth (14:01.856)
Yes, good. All right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no Harmonas being, I mean, no Harmonas being one of the few truly enlightened boy podcast presenters about two white guys, two Anglo guys.
Jett Loe (14:16.313)
Jett Loe (14:24.85)
Wha wha w what would I dunno. I just asked myself what Ben Tripiero or Tucker Carlson would do and try to follow
Gareth (14:30.954)
Well, that's... We should do the opposite. Okay, are we starting with you coming in or me coming in?
Jett Loe (14:39.09)
Yeah Okay y yeah, sure we can we can start with I'll come in and then and then shall I just come in and then you can just go into your what number fourteen? Sounds good. How is Brian? Is he doing okay? He can't sleep because you keep waking his ass up. Their ass up. Sorry.
Gareth (14:45.016)
Bye.
Number 14, yeah, yeah.
Doing good. I know, I know. In the most acute pain I've ever experienced.
Jett Loe (14:58.748)
See, I'm learning.
Gareth (14:59.754)
Alright, that's good. That's good. He's a heave. Heave is a heave. He's a heave.
Jett Loe (15:03.29)
I'm with I'm with ya. What's that?
Jett Loe (15:08.709)
man, what? Is that a new thing?
Gareth (15:09.826)
doesn't reject the he but includes the they. Anyway, let's...
Jett Loe (15:14.31)
Well, I watched we w watched Life Force the other day with my friend Byron and his partner Aaron. And I have to it's you know, I'm old so I have to constantly make sure I say they.
Gareth (15:18.05)
Yes. Yes.
Gareth (15:26.494)
Aaron is a, Aaron is a they.
Jett Loe (15:26.556)
When talking about Aaron.
Aaron is a they. I don't know biologic I mean, I don't
Gareth (15:31.446)
Mm-hmm. That sounds like an album by Devo.
Jett Loe (15:37.018)
Aaron is a day. Well, and I didn't know if it was Aaron E R I N or A A R O N. And I'm like I think in a text I spelled it A A R O N. I'm like and it's actually E it's E R I N for Aaron.
Gareth (15:40.815)
Or A-A-R-O-N. Uh-huh. We should... You know, I actually... E-R-I-N. I think we... This is an interesting idea. We could do a show about trans representation in movies and get a couple of people on that know what they're talking about. I think that would be really good. Be really good. Okie doke. Okay.
Jett Loe (15:57.831)
Let's do it.
Jett Loe (16:01.852)
Let's do it. Sketch it sketch it out. Ski I'm all f I'm all for it. Don't let my curmudliness in any way make you think that I don't think
Gareth (16:08.718)
Hey, I love you. Stay on the right side of friendly curmudgeon. I like friendly curmudgeon. Back with the transphobia. Sorry.
Jett Loe (16:14.182)
Yeah, I don't wanna be a dick.
Gender eggs.
Gareth (16:23.096)
You make me laugh. Yeah. Live your life. know. Live your life who? Live your life they? Every time you do it, I'm going to press stop. All right.
Jett Loe (16:24.166)
I don't yeah, I mean you know, just just live your life, man. Just live your people peop people fuck.
fuck. Okay, all right, all right, all right. Okay. Three, two, one. All right, we're gonna get right into it. Looking at my list and what the films I've just rewatched, I realize, of course, numbers are meaningless, Gareth. It's ridiculous even to apply a metric to art, but let's do it because you know, why not? Let's do it. What's your number 14?
Gareth (16:51.618)
Hehehehehe
Gareth (16:57.612)
Let's do it anyway.
Well, well, you know, I'm assuming we're not going to recap the previous 20 on the list. Dear listener, you can go back and listen to our Spielbergen episode number one and our Spielbergen episode number two. Is Spielbergen related to Candice Bergen?
Jett Loe (17:17.35)
Yeah, I think they're second cousins. That's why he did all those cameos on Murphy Brown.
Gareth (17:18.89)
OK, and then there are. And then there are separate are entirely separate Disclosure Day episode, because, as you know, the cardinal rule, I don't know if it's a cardinal rule. No pun intended. If you've seen Disclosure Day, the cardinal rule is that a film, a film can't really be properly ranked in the total over of a filmmaker when it's just been released. But given that you've totally upended the schema for these episodes, I'm to tell you
Jett Loe (17:34.621)
Boilers.
Jett Loe (17:47.421)
Yes.
Gareth (17:48.323)
where I would put Disclosure Day on this list by the end of this episode. I'll tell you where I would put it after having undermined the rationale for doing that. And indeed, you having undermined the rationale for these three special episodes.
Jett Loe (18:02.024)
I feel we shouldn't even do the show now because we've the whole system is is been thro is out of order.
Gareth (18:04.266)
Number 14. It just shows, it just goes to show that science and religion are not non-overlapping magisteria. And we'll do an episode about Stephen J. Gold one of these days, but right now it's only one Stephen that matters. You can, you can, but one is a number, one is a number, so be careful. Yes.
Jett Loe (18:21.096)
Can I just say one one thing before we get into your number fourteen?
I just want to say this one thing. I have never laughed harder in my entire life than one day I was reading The Guardian on the Underground in London, and it was an article about how much Stephen Jay Gould, who you just referenced, and Richard Dawkins hated each other. And I fell out of the like the bench seating on the the tube train laughing because two people.
Gareth (18:43.33)
Yes. Aww, that's a pity.
Gareth (18:51.128)
Hold on, was it the Victorian era?
Jett Loe (18:54.62)
They had when I s when I moved to London, the the underground the the trains still had floors made of wood. Do you remember those? The wood with the slats, right? but the fact that two evolutionary biologists who spend their time thinking about adaptive traits and hierarchies and and natural selection would despise each other. The two most prominent popular popularists of the of the form, I just did tears. Anyway, let's move on. We've done a lot of digressions. People want to get the Spielberg in. What's your number fourteen?
Gareth (18:57.006)
It a rickety train.
Yes.
Gareth (19:09.143)
Yes.
handsome.
Gareth (19:19.192)
Well.
We have, we have. Number 14 is the best of the, how many, are there five Indiana Jones films thus far? One of whom was not directed, but yes, that's correct. Last Crusade, it's the pinnacle of Indiana Jones-ism-ness. It's just, you get the sense that they sat down and they went.
Jett Loe (19:29.692)
Depends who you ask.
Gareth (19:48.047)
How could we do everything we've done in the previous two and get it more right than we did those times? Its pacing is wonderful. It has a fantastic central relationship in the father and son dynamic. It has some real pathos in the decision taken at the end to let go of the grail in favor of the people that you care for. And it's certainly got the best scene of a 700 year old knight.
getting to do the one thing that he's been waiting seven centuries to do but being toppled over backwards by the fact that his sword is too heavy and comedy Denim Elliott.
Jett Loe (20:31.314)
Gastrointestinal distress there.
Well, this is interesting because this is not one y by far it's way lower on my list of Indiana Jones films, but yet h interestingly enough, I put it up higher on my list and I'm gonna tell you and the listeners what it
Gareth (20:45.582)
Hold on, it's lower than your, it's lower than what? How can it be lower and higher?
Jett Loe (20:51.889)
Well exactly. Why and why remake that, Spike Lee, I ask you.
It's the Kurusaw film high and low. He remade it as higher. We're not gonna talk about we don't need to get into into Kurusaw and Spike Lee, two great filmmakers.
Gareth (21:01.696)
You don't need to explain that. You don't need to explain that. Yes. It's great film. Okay, so your indies are higher than my indies.
Jett Loe (21:10.128)
My Indiana Jones and Last Crusade is number eleven, even th I why not? It's fine.
Gareth (21:12.652)
Don't say the numbers in advance!
There's only the suspense. The suspense is maybe the only thing this is going for it.
Jett Loe (21:23.344)
I disagree with you. I think pithy film insight is is worth something.
Gareth (21:24.737)
Okay.
That's important. That's important. Okay, your, your that, that, that Indy is higher, but it's not your highest Indy.
Jett Loe (21:30.219)
you know it's
Jett Loe (21:35.601)
No, it's not. And I'll tell I'll say why when we'll say well I'll say why when we get to my number eleven. So that's your number fourteen. Fourteen. My my fourteen, catch me if you can, but for only one particular reason. It's a frothy, lighthearted, vibrant, a pastiche of a film. But the reason I'm putting up high is just because of the Pardon my language, folks.
Gareth (21:36.462)
I've maxed out my indies. My indies have culminated.
Gareth (21:47.31)
14. And what's yours? What's yours?
Jett Loe (22:04.742)
The balls of the person who wrote his autobiography book, his memoir about his cons, because it's clear that he saw that con men writing books and being in popular media was successful. So what he did, what this con man did, this is the character Leonardo Caprio is based on, instead of committing all the cons, he just wrote a totally fake book about cons that never happened. And then they made a movie. Brilliant!
You thought you that's a genius move. You re it's you're cutting through the Gordian knot, folks. You don't have to commit the cons, you just tell people you did the cons and then you become a famous con man. Brilliant. So that's why
Gareth (22:34.83)
Yes.
Jett Loe (22:41.138)
Catch me if you can. It's my number fourteen. All right. Moving on. Number thirteen.
Gareth (22:41.518)
Catch me if you can.
Gareth (22:46.774)
Your number 13 first please. Let's alternate who goes first. I don't want to always go first.
Jett Loe (22:49.754)
Sure, you have a lot of rules here.
Jett Loe (22:54.225)
no, I guess I last longer. Alright. Number three
Gareth (22:54.894)
We gotta be equitable. We gotta be, no, that's, that's, get rid of that.
Let's keep going, but.
Jett Loe (23:06.864)
I'm happy to acquiesce to whatever strange, bizarre, rule based system you've got for this ranking show.
Gareth (23:12.032)
I want it to be equitable. not fair on you if I always go first.
Jett Loe (23:16.358)
It's not fair to have a ranked list. There's n there's no there's no fairness.
Gareth (23:19.79)
But where do you see my list? Where do you see my top 10?
Jett Loe (23:23.672)
I'm interested. All right. Number 13. My number 13 is the post, which is absolutely fantastic. And this is a film that I missed when it when it came out, never saw it. And you look at it now, these later Spielberg films are so crisp, they move so effortlessly. And you can see that even in Catch Me If You Can. And that was from 2002, and this is, you know, 15 years later, later, 2017. But it just moves like a like a out of control.
Gareth (23:26.315)
Alright, yes.
Gareth (23:31.543)
Hmm.
Jett Loe (23:53.757)
bus like speed. But if the speed bus was carrying, you know, important documents revealing the Vietnam War was a lie. it's more timely than ever, Gareth. it's more necessary. Like the press matters. And it's so fascinating watching this film because one of the underlying themes is is about I think kind of like the prison that we're in now with the destruction of the analog.
'Cause the analog introduced so much friction into life. It's so sculptural and non-trackable. People don't have phones in the post. It's the early seventies. Everything is very physical. And that's a wonderful thing to see. Even in which maybe possibly was supposed to be the last shot, which keeps going out wider and wider as we see the the you know, the mechanics and the the wonderful industrial age machinery of the the the actual paper production itself producing the
you know, producing the morning paper. It's it's really it's really something, folks. And I I can recommend it highly enough. Just again, going back to like when we talked about disclosure day, how excited I was when in every scene there's wonderful bits of business with the camera, like I said in Disclosure Day, with the serial going down for representing Hale. And in the post, we have wonderful stuff. We've got a guy, a lower functional functionary in the newspaper, and he's trying to get some papers to Ben Bradley played and in different style than Jason Robards played by Tom Hanks.
And just watch this film to listener and well I wanna talk about that. But it he here's the thing when you're watching Jason Robards, you feel you're watching Ben Bradley. This is a real person. When you're watching Tom Hanks, you go, look, Tom Hanks is doing something different. It's a very different thing. And that's a that's a difference between movies in the seventies. You really feel that you're you're there. If duel was made now, you would feel you know, let's say it stars Timothy Chalamet. You would feel look Timothy Chalamet acting rather than Dennis Weaver being.
Gareth (25:12.906)
A different style, yes.
Gareth (25:39.47)
That's interesting. I how much? I see that, but I wonder also how much that's to do with the place that Tom Hanks occupies and the culture is somewhat different than the place Jason Robards occupies. I Jason Robards was never a leading man and never a, you know, a megastar.
Jett Loe (25:40.946)
Trapped in a horrible situation.
Jett Loe (25:58.963)
So in your mind Tom Hanks is is is doing what? Is downplaying it? He's he's ratcheting down his movie star charisma.
Gareth (26:03.648)
No, I mean, I think, I think, mean, it's, you know, I'm I'm not getting out a, a, a sympathy violin. I'm sure Tom Hanks doesn't need it, but the bigger the stuff, the bigger the star, the harder it is to really immerse in a role for an audience to take you to because over familiarity is part of what you're up against there. You know, an actor like Clooney or an actor like Tom Cruise, it's really hard to know. that a good performance?
Jett Loe (26:13.447)
He's done well.
Gareth (26:32.302)
or not. There's also, I mean, I think we'll both agree with this, but whatever dosage of gravel that Jason Robards clearly gargled with every morning before he opened his mouth gives him an advantage over anybody else playing the same role. The guy's voice just sounds like it belongs on a stage.
Jett Loe (26:54.184)
Well, I don't know what his gargle routine is in the morning, but the thing is is that the difference between those guys and these guys, like watching the professionals with like Lee J. Marvin, you feel like, these people had a life before becoming famous. And then someone like Tom Hanks or, you know, like a an Ethan Hawk or Christian Bale, this is they grew up. Maybe Tom Hanks not as much, but still he was in bosom buddies when he was young. You feel like, hey, this look at the look at this good quality film actor making interesting choices, and he's he's great.
Gareth (27:08.206)
Mm-hmm.
Gareth (27:12.974)
they grew up famous. Yeah. Sure. Sure.
Gareth (27:23.006)
Mmm, mmm.
Jett Loe (27:23.794)
Whereas when you're watching DC Robo, it's like, this is a real guy. You're seeing you see in the life, and that's the difference. But the
Gareth (27:26.402)
You're seeing a life. Okay, gotcha. Gotcha, gotcha. Well, and, yeah.
Jett Loe (27:31.891)
But the post the post is great. And how you know, there was a film with who's the the Who Framed Roger Rabbit guy? Long Good Friday guy. Big Portly. He's Hopkins, right? Hopkins was in the Super Mar Super Mario Brothers movie. With John Liguisiamo. Guaz Guasiamo? Lil okay. Wonderful guy. Great actor. He's got some great stories about Steve about Stephen Zagal. So at the end of the Super Mario Brothers movie.
Gareth (27:40.514)
Bob Hoskins. Hoskins.
Gareth (27:47.084)
Yes he was. Like, like with...
Jett Loe (28:01.594)
It has the most blatant lead up to a sequel ever where the film's over and then someone bursts the the female lead bursts the door and says, Guys, you won't believe what's happened. We gotta go back. Right? So this is like and you've never seen such sequel bait unless you've seen the post. After the post ends, there's a whole nother scene in which it is revealed basically that what you've been watching this whole time is a not a, you know, thematic intro or thematic prequel.
But a literal prequel to the seventies film All the President's Men. It's even shot in that style. And that that's a lot of fun. I don't think it's necessary, but it's a it's a lot of fun for film buffs.
Gareth (28:38.819)
Mm-hmm.
Not a bad double bill or indeed, or indeed. I'm going to do one of my Gareth segues here, just preparing you for it. You ready for the chuckle? You ready for the chuckle and the eye roll?
Jett Loe (28:47.569)
And Mail Streep is great.
Jett Loe (28:57.978)
I have that like on a little soundboard here. I just press a button and and the video
Gareth (29:00.098)
Yes, yes, the the post I do I do this for you. I do this because I love you. I do this for everybody needs a bit of lightness in their day. The post and all the presidents been not a bad bit of dual programming. For my number 13 for my number 13.
Jett Loe (29:14.8)
I think that would be f I th I think that would be funnier if there was some element of duel in there. Like Dennis Weaver had like a cameo appearance as like the pub do you know what I mean? As like Meryl Streep's late husband.
Gareth (29:22.318)
Maybe so, but was was was was I was kind of misplacing a letter. Jewel is my number.
Jett Loe (29:28.88)
I don't think I don't think that's a good enough hook to move on to your your next one.
Gareth (29:35.33)
Get down off your warhorse, sir.
Is that how you want to play this?
Jett Loe (29:40.604)
We could you wanna ch you wanna just you wanna just keep you wanna keep doing this? We could keep jawing about this business all day long, but l let's let's not.
Gareth (29:52.207)
I'm looking through the entire rest of this filmography and there's nothing punnable. There's nothing punnable. But you're always in my heart, Jett. Always.
Jett Loe (30:04.252)
You know what? Sometimes I like talking with you, but other times it feels like a temple of doom. What is please for the love of God?
Gareth (30:09.262)
Jewel is my number 13, released in 1971, originally a TV movie, given a theatrical release. And you could watch it now and it could be one of those films that Roger Rebert used to take it to that World Affairs Conference in Colorado and just stop every scene and use it as a way to teach people how to frame and edit things. Palpable sense of menace. And it's so strange. And this is the only other thing I'll say about it.
It's so strange that that superficial sense that a lot of people have about Spielberg, about his films being sentimental, sappy, saccharine. When his career began with this menacing, sinister, genuinely a horror film about a guy being pursued by who knows what and who knows.
why it actually evokes an amazing story by Flannery O'Connor. I think it's called The Turkey, which if you haven't read yet or dear listener, take a look at The Turkey. It does an amazing job describing that feeling of being a child and sensing that there's something coming after you, behind you, and you have to outrun it. Jewel is a magnificent film, a magnificent start to a theatrical career. And of course, as I say, it wasn't even intended to be. So who knows what would have happened if
HeatState in TV.
Jett Loe (31:38.387)
Well, he do some great episodes of the Love Boat. you know, his Columbo pilot after their first two Columbo movies, Murdered by the Book, is fantastic. You know, I rewatched Duel. This is one of those having to, you know, pull the numbers out of the bingo cage. Duel now has gone way up. I had it at number seventeen. but it's it's fantastic. And f dear listeners, folks, th watch duel. And if you do watch the theatrical version, you know, they had to kind of
Gareth (31:44.258)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (32:07.43)
Not say pat it out, they made it longer so they could release the film theatrically in Europe because it was a TV movie. And he added maybe like three scenes, a scene with Dennis Weaver talking to his wife, a scene at train tracks, which is right out right out of Disclosure Day. sort of a remake of that. And a scene with some school bus kids. You take those out and he made the entire film in 12 days. And that's that's extraordinary. It's it's it's it w it's not just that he knows what to do with the camera and he can craft something.
He can work really fast and probably works really you know, under budget, which is why he was loved by the studio. So it was it's a very canny choice for him to shoot the way that he does. And I think I said something when I put it at number seventeen that it somehow like in the absence of reason is madness, right? So here's this person, maybe he's like a salesperson, he's trying to live a normal life.
Gareth (32:48.056)
Hm-hm.
Jett Loe (32:53.006)
And he's confronted by the the absence of reason. And we only have to go th through the whole themes about the fact that his last name is man and his wife says he's not standing up for himself, that she was like assaulted at a party and he didn't do anything. You know, we we get it. It's a little on the nose, but it's it's brilliantly, brilliantly done.
Gareth (33:00.696)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (33:10.896)
And we see a lot of the Spielberg and stuff in there. I think he he ends the film with a silhouette of Dennis Weaver, right? And we keep if you watch all of his movies, you keep seeing the same, the same ending over and over again. And that's fine because it it really works. So duel is moving up. I'm not gonna give it a number because even ranking anything is absurd in our entire project with these three episodes is a is a farce. But it's it's fantastic and worth seeing, folks. All right, what is your number twelve? Do we have a number twelve?
Gareth (33:39.214)
My number 12 is one of those that reflects what I think I called a chasm of divergence between us and the previous episodes. ranked this... Did I? Canyon? Do you remember? How many times have you listened to those episodes?
Jett Loe (33:49.53)
Right. Did you use the word chasm?
Jett Loe (33:56.229)
I I don't go back and listen to our show. To be honest, I let the AI do it for me. It belongs to the people.
Gareth (33:58.959)
You're like you're a true artist. Once it's out there, once it's out there. Chasm of divergence. My number 12 is War Horse. War Horse is Spielberg's Gone with the Wind. Very clearly intended to look like Gone with the Wind, particularly in the agricultural scenes in the sunsets and without the horrendous racism and unconscious.
supremacism of it. It's also his most truly anti-war film. I've already said about Saving Private Ryan that I feel like Saving Private Ryan wants to be anti-war and what it ends up doing is it portrays the horror of war, but it also portrays war as maybe a bit more of an expression of nobility and honour. And of course, the sacrifice of people who go to war has to be taken seriously and respected.
But War Horse itself is more about how war is just awful on all counts and that people who are already lack power are the ones who suffer the most. the phenomenon of the horse as he's not the horse is not the MacGuffin actually. I the horse is the center of the film, but the horse calls forth empathy cross culturally, across gender lines, across age.
lines and it's just a exquisite film. With bonus Peter Mullen who is one of those things we should do, I think we should do like a litany of the actors and the things that no film would be disadvantaged by having in it and Peter Mullen is one of those actors. There's nothing he wouldn't make better.
Jett Loe (35:45.299)
What is Peter Mullen has he ever pla played the brother of Pete Posselwaite in a movie? Cause couldn't can't you see Mullen and Posselwaite? Like they're they they're criminals. One of them is trying to go straight, the other one's just getting out of the joint, and we watch and we just spend a day with them. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You just like they just they're they're Posselwaite is in prison.
Gareth (35:54.632)
Wow.
Gareth (35:59.593)
Each of them is trying to go straight in different ways. No, each of them is trying to go straight in different ways. What? What? What? What? What?
Jett Loe (36:10.19)
And he comes out no, or maybe it's maybe it's Mullen. Mullen comes out and we're just watching these two brothers and the one day they have before something else terrible is gonna happen and woman's gonna have to go back inside 'cause of re recidivism. I I just think that could be that could be wonderful. The one day.
Gareth (36:10.232)
Yes.
Gareth (36:25.058)
It's the one day that they spend together. At some point they're sitting on the edge of a pier in Leith on the edge of Edinburgh swinging their legs, talking about when they were kids.
Jett Loe (36:36.796)
That sounds terrible. No. So I here's here's the thing with with not not not to crap on your apotheweight Mullen brothers concept. War Horse, you know I've already said that that you know John Williams' music is so strong, Spiel Spielberg's direction is so strong. The problem I had with Warhorses, the music tells you what you what how to feel, but we already know how to feel from looking at the visuals. So so it just I'll I'll revisit it again. That's the one that I did not revisit.
Gareth (36:38.144)
All right, Pete and Pete.
Gareth (36:59.854)
It's that kind of film. It's that kind of film.
Gareth (37:05.142)
Okay. What's your number 12?
Jett Loe (37:06.968)
but I would say, well, I just want to say one quick thing. If you're there about the following along an equine creature for a film, I'm it's tough to top the incredible Brestalin film Ahazard Balthazar, which is like on another level. I mean Spielberg is great, these are these are great movies.
Gareth (37:17.422)
Black Stallion. Balthazar. All right. Different, very different films. Very different films. They do have an animal. So does Babe. So does Watership Down. Balthazar, I mean, there's almost nothing that's as good as Balthazar, for horses, the Black Stallion's an exquisite, exquisite. Have you seen the Black Stallion?
Jett Loe (37:26.092)
They're very different. But they got an animal. See, I focused I focused in on a horse donkey. And not as good as A Ahazar Balthazar and almost no film is.
Jett Loe (37:45.231)
the Carol Ballard film. That's good too. But dear listeners, you can watch Ahazar Balthazar and ask yourself, watch it, right? Black and white picture, late 60s, 66, 65, something like that. And ask yourself, how is this film a transcendental masterpiece, even from the first few seconds? When you sit there and watch it, you are you are enveloped in an experience that is of of life that is so poignant, difficult, and hard.
Gareth (37:46.508)
Yeah, amazing film, amazing film.
Gareth (37:52.909)
Yes.
Gareth (38:04.428)
Yes.
Jett Loe (38:14.638)
It makes you glad that you're alive and glad to have, if you have a loved one in your life that cares about you, you're glad that you have that. It's a rock to hold on to. Tzar, Balthazar.
Gareth (38:23.254)
And I'm, I'm, yeah, I'll tell you this. When I, when I saw it, I've only seen it once at the QFT, at the QFT in 1995, when the great Michael Open curated a year of the 300 greatest films ever made to celebrate the centenary of cinema. And I remember seeing it with my friend, Stephen. And I, right now I remember his reaction to the film so powerful. QFT of course,
Jett Loe (38:31.58)
See it again.
Gareth (38:49.942)
long-term listeners will know the very place where Jett and I met. His reaction was so powerful I can remember the look on his face when he turned to me unable to speak at the end of O Hazar Balthasar. It's one of those unable to speak at the end of films. What's your number 12?
Jett Loe (39:05.778)
Well, again, going back to the bingo cage idea, here's a film I have not rewatched and so maybe it'll come
Gareth (39:10.722)
Was that a Mad Max sequel?
Jett Loe (39:13.65)
The bing the yeah, two balls enter, only one ball leaves. So we've all had that experience. So my number 12. I have not re-watched this. So I have not seen this since it came out. If I rewatch it, let's say rewatch it after the show, which I probably will, I'm gonna completely change my ranking. My number 12 is Schindler's List. So I almost don't want to say anything because maybe.
Gareth (39:37.581)
wow.
Jett Loe (39:43.269)
It it it'll go higher than twelve or lower than twelve, depending. There's a lot I could say about it, but I'm gonna I'm not gonna say anything about Schindler's list. I'm just not I'm just not gonna say anything because now I realize I need to say it again. I have a whole paragraph of stuff. Kubrick gets mentioned in the stuff, Ben Kingsley, War of the Worlds, Nope. I have a whole thing about Nope and Schindler's list.
Gareth (39:55.106)
Okay.
Gareth (39:59.897)
All right.
Alright. But you're not going to say, other than that, you're not going to say anything about it.
Jett Loe (40:10.342)
Not gonna not gonna not gonna do it. Let's move on. I may have to do a separate put it on our Patreon page or as a bonus episode, a separate Schindler's list episode. Okay. Okay.
Gareth (40:16.438)
I look forward to it. I'll watch Shinders List again too. Maybe we'll do whole episode of Shinders List. Number 11, Dear Jet, number 11.
Jett Loe (40:24.36)
You're asking me my number 11? Okay. Well, I've already revealed it, right? That's Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade. Here's here's the weird thing about this film.
Gareth (40:25.419)
I am, yes.
Gareth (40:29.748)
Aha, not a convergence of chasm, not a chasm of divergence. The canyon. There's only three, there's only three in it between 14 and 11.
Jett Loe (40:35.854)
For l well maybe we'll wait wait till you hear what I have to say because
Jett Loe (40:42.416)
I I don't what?
Gareth (40:43.948)
My Crot L'As-Crusade was 14 years as number 11 for people following along who care about the numbers.
Jett Loe (40:49.212)
I the numbers are meaningless. Like Billy Bardy said in Willow, talking about like the magic stones or whatever he rocks, and he says, you know, they tell me nothing. Little Willow reference. Guess you don't recall. Where are you gonna put Willow on this list? I ask you. Okay. Here's the thing about Ian Jones and The Last Last Crusade. People love this movie. I got at my number 11. it's incredibly instructive, dear listeners. We may have talked about this before. They hired the
the brilliant playwright Tom Stoppard to do a polish on the script. And someone online has gone through this the shooting script before Stoppard got involved, then Stoppard's changes. And the person who's gone through and made, I'll put it in the show notes, apologies I don't recall the person's name right now, made a list of all the changes Stoppard made and then sort of explained how they tightened up and work on the story and how they further the story. The script is absolutely fantastic.
The weird thing is, and this this you know, this is a a a function of when I saw it in my age. When I saw it, I was disappointed. Me and all my friends were disappointed. Because we were at a certain age where we had seen in the theater Temple of Doom, and Temple of Doom is so pulpy and so action-packed, and we were like just at the right age, young kids to see Temple of Doom. So when we saw Last Crusade, it was kind of like, because when you watch Last Crusade, it has the feeling of what? It doesn't look like Raiders or Temple of Doom.
It looks like a TV movie. If I didn't know better, you would say, is this an Indiana Jones TV movie? Even the effects, the effects are nowhere near as good as the other films. Like even like if you look at the blimp and the the poor green screen has a jokey tone. It feels very thin. It has much wider shots. So even think about the rhinoceros horn coming up between the legs of young River Phoenix in the beginning. It doesn't have any impact because shoot Spielberg is shooting it really wide.
Where if it was Temple of Doom, it would have been this really tight close-up of the thing of the horn busting through the the train car. And all this is intentional because it's a light, frothy film, kind of like catch me catch me if you can. But again, to me, it feels like a TV movie. But a brilliant script, really well done. You've already, you know, the whole bit about having to let go, let go of this, you know, of the of the grail d to g go towards healing, let go of your obsessions. It's really beautiful, but it's not higher on my list because again, it does feel.
Gareth (42:38.702)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (43:08.454)
Like a T V movie. Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade.
Gareth (43:11.95)
My number 11 is a, this is also a convergence one, after thinking about what you said, it might drop down a little bit. And that is the fabled men's, which you said is that they had too much money. And so it like, it just looks too good. And I, I, I get it. And at the same time, it's a painfully beautiful film about a family falling apart and has an extraordinary pivotal moment when
Jett Loe (43:26.406)
Looks overproduced.
Gareth (43:41.177)
the young director character in watching in watching his own footage. It dawns on him that his parents marriage is breaking up and. Yeah, it's amazing, actually, and a wonderful like an ending that is such a hilarious punch line, you almost expect Bugs Bunny to pop up out of the screen and say, that's all folks. But perhaps it looks a bit too shiny.
Jett Loe (43:44.572)
Who's he based on?
Jett Loe (44:12.488)
It's it's a it's a it's a l a little you know, that and I wish we could have seen the young director maybe you know, direct an episode of Beretta or something. He could have gone, you know, he's directing an episode of Night Gallery, which is what Steven Spielberg did. It's a well-made picture. I appreciate that you've put it where you have. My number ten. My number ten is Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. And this is folks, this is a this is a personal list, subjective. I was at the exactly right age.
Gareth (44:13.09)
That's my number 11.
Jett Loe (44:42.296)
as like a white male child to see these rousing adventures with Indiana Jones character as an avatar. So the the caricatures of you know non white cultures or Indian culture completely went over my head. I was just astonished. And I remember when I was a kid, I think I saw it this the second time I saw it, I remember taking out my watch and it had it was a little digital watch. You press a button and illuminates the it's like a Timex that illuminates the little L C D screen.
And I timed how long the last action sequence was. And dear listeners, folks, the last action sequence is something like forty-two minutes long. It just doesn't stop. And, you know, as a kid, as a boy, growing up as I did, it w I was astonished. And, you know, my my jaw dropped. And my jaw j dropped throughout the entire film, right? When they even when he like leaves the the the plane that crashes, and that is a bad special effect. So I take back a little bit what I said about
Gareth (45:19.938)
Hmm.
Jett Loe (45:40.705)
Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade and Spielberg, I'm sure thought it was a terrible special effect too when the plane blows up because he redid it far, far better in Empire of the Sun. But you know, my jaw dropped as the they go over the the cliff and everything else. So for me it it it it was a wonderful example of the power of editing to to create momentum. So that's why it's my number ten Indiana Jones and Temple of Doom.
Gareth (46:03.296)
All right, well, we are we are into the top 10 and my number 10 is the colour purple, partly because I don't know why it isn't thought of this way, but the performance of the central actor in that film is one of the all time greatest performances in the history of cinema. And I suspect that there are two reasons, one less malign than
Jett Loe (46:25.896)
Well, is it because he was he's too famous from the Lethal Weapon movies? Is that why? They didn't want to give Danny Glover his due? No, she's luminous. Whoopi Goldberg is luminous.
Gareth (46:29.46)
ha ha ha ha. God bless Danny Glover. No, I think partly because partly because what would be Goldberg is thought of as a comedian. so people and she hasn't mean truth be told, she has not played a lot of great roles since then. But I think it's racist and pure and simple or at least centering white actors. That performance does justice to the character of Celie, one of the great characters in in
in literature and the story that film almost or the story told in that film almost just does justice to the arc of Celie's development. And one of the things that happens in the novel of the colour purple is that she invents a new language. The novel's epistolary. It's hard to say. It's letters. It's letters, mostly letters to God. But you see Celie's own emotional, psychosocial
Jett Loe (47:17.416)
Like Dracula.
Gareth (47:25.55)
and intellectual development in the way she uses words as she develops as a person and her kind of, I mean, use the word naive, but I mean, I mean that in a respectful, dignified sense, her naive appreciation of the world and spirituality developing into a deep sense of integration, holding her own boundaries, challenging these people who are causing her so much suffering. What the film leaves out, as I already mentioned in one of the earlier episodes, is the clearer sense of the redemption of Danny Glover's character of
of Mr. But up until like, it's not so much that there's anything in the film that I would change. It's about 15 minutes that wasn't in the film that I would add back in her, her, her kind of transformative journey after she leaves town and before she comes back deserved more attention as did the redemption of Mr. But that aside, it's, it's an exquisite film to look at, has a great score. Every performance is
No, perfect. It's one of the great redemption stories in movies and really is worth a second look. That's my number 10. What's your number? Or you want to say something about it? You have that look. You have that look on your face. No, I haven't. you've if you've already the way I've been doing this, I don't know if you've noticed the strategy is that is that is that when
Jett Loe (48:38.168)
I would I I I'm sorry, it's just like the Gareth Higgins show here with
I've already
Jett Loe (48:50.126)
I haven't followed the rules.
Gareth (48:53.282)
When you mentioned a film earlier and I already said some things about it then, I don't say so much about it later or vice versa. But you're welcome.
Jett Loe (49:00.294)
I promise to me I promise to pay more attention. Do you know Gareth in all seriousness and I would listen, I'm a subscriber to the Gareth Hickin show. I love it. I love your commentary on the World Cup. Your analysis of sports is just fantastic.
Gareth (49:03.896)
hahaha
Gareth (49:10.702)
Yes, second to none. really is second to none. I think we'd have to agree. Nobody, nobody says the kinds of things that I say about football. That's right. Salieri. Salieri.
Jett Loe (49:16.048)
That's true.
Jett Loe (49:20.806)
Nobody's doing what you're doing when it comes to you know your coverage of the WNBA. the thing that you know, interesting going back and watching, and it's all seriousness, going back and looking at Spielberg's films, looking at the color purple, and I mentioned this in in our earlier episodes, right? Is that it was so clear that he did it right after Temple of Doom, because it's full of this Temple of Doom slapstick. It even looks like Temple of Doom a lot. I think this would have been a much better film if he had done it post Schindler's list.
Where his films ha are less I would say treacely, right? The kind of thing he gets knocked for being overly sentimental or treacely. But if you look at his films like R Minority Report and War of the Worlds and and The Post and Bridge of Spies, if he had done it in that era, I think it would have been harder. There would have been an edge to it. It would have been tempered. And I think he was he did it. I think he did it too, I think he did it too young. So I would I would love to seen
Gareth (50:11.032)
I
Jett Loe (50:20.634)
A later version of it, but we do get films like Munich and you know what have you. can I just say one thing about Bridge of Spies? Cause I had it all the way down at what what did I have it at? Number 87 or something. I had it at 18. Excuse me. And watching it again just for the craft. I watched it a couple days ago. Dear listeners, like a typical example. He goes to see a judge or character, not Jason Robards, Tom Hanks, goes goes in.
Gareth (50:26.68)
You can.
Gareth (50:31.234)
Yes, something like that.
Jett Loe (50:49.286)
He's a lawyer and he goes into a judge asking for something in particular from the judge. And everybody's against Tom Hanks, the lawyer, right? T classic Tom Hanks rule. He's a good man, but the system is arrayed against him. And he's offered a glass of scotch, and he does like a a drink. In the film we see him drink.
Gareth (51:02.798)
But the judge played by Deacon Matthews. Fantastic. One of the many character actors who you don't see in anything else. Spielberg just drops him in.
Jett Loe (51:14.77)
But you know his name.
Gareth (51:17.038)
because I just looked it up to remind myself. It's the tricks of the trade. I remembered his face. I remember his face. He's in Lincoln as well, I think.
Jett Loe (51:19.022)
Okay, fair enough. Like so memorable as the years as the years go by. But what happens in that scene? It's a big pivotal scene where he's trying to this is an important scene. He's trying to convince the judge of something, and it'll and I'll change the whole course of the film. He's handed a glass of scotch by the judge's wife, and the judge is undoing his tie. And so he hand the judge who's drinking scotch hands Tom Hanks a glass of his glass of scotch. And so during the entire scene.
Hanks is holding two glasses of Scotch and he looks like the scales of like he's holding the scales of justice. So depending on how the conversation goes, either the judge's glass moves one way or his glass moves one way. And those little things, like you don't have to notice them, but if you do to listeners, if you engage with Spielberg's camera work and his blocking, it's boy, it's just so much fun to see what he does. And the glasses of Scotch come back later with another character. So I'm I'm gonna put Bridget Spies is great.
I I'm I'm moving it way up. I'm not gonna give it a number ranking because that's absurd. Who would do such a thing? But
Gareth (52:22.154)
and that your number nine is...
Jett Loe (52:24.648)
My number my number nine. What do you think my number nine is gonna be? Let's do this. Let's play this game, mister.
Gareth (52:31.692)
I don't know. Okay, okay. Give me a clue.
Jett Loe (52:35.885)
has a wonderful central performance.
Jett Loe (52:41.648)
Okay, it has okay. This now this will help you because I've talked about this one scene many times in our 20 years of doing the film talk. The actor has this has the famous bit of business by this actor in any of his movies. And it's when he slaps his hands together because he's angry at somebody. And it is so good and it is so true. I don't
Gareth (52:45.026)
Yes?
Yes?
Gareth (52:51.558)
huh, huh.
Jett Loe (53:07.09)
For a moment, think of this person as a movie star when he's doing it. I'm thinking him as a pissed-off dad who's probably not a very good father. And his son doesn't have any time for him. And his daughter has no time for him. His wife has left him as with another man. And this, our protagonist, is angry. He's angry at his son. And he slaps his hands together and he gives this look.
And it's like the angry dad look. And it is so good. And that is Tom Cruise in War of the Worlds, a brilliant misunderstood film.
Gareth (53:38.521)
War of the Worlds. That's the huge, I think that may be the biggest canyon of chasm of convergence of divergence between us. I watched some of it yesterday. I watched some of it yesterday. was my number, I think it was my number 29. None of these films are bad, but tell me more about your love of War of the Worlds. Yeah.
Jett Loe (53:45.84)
You know, see it again. What is it? You're no either is it your number one or it's your number fifty? Some of it Wow. Don't care.
Jett Loe (53:59.997)
War horse. well, War of the Worlds and I think we covered it when we did the original version of the show, right? You know, when we first see Tom Cruise. Yeah, the original version. Yeah, you know, we've been doing this for twenty years, right? We stopped for like ten years.
Gareth (54:08.322)
The original version of the show? the one where like, yes, sorry, yes, I gotcha. I'm confused. No one would have believed that in the first years of the 21st century, two men would come together. Blah, blah, blah.
Jett Loe (54:22.46)
It was like wow, it's like Morgan Freeman was here. So we first see Tom Cruise, he's he's operating a crane, right? He's he's working on the on the docks, and of course the crane repres
Gareth (54:24.876)
Yes.
Gareth (54:34.85)
The common man, Tom Cruise, the common man.
Jett Loe (54:37.82)
The c yeah. Well, is I don't know, is he is he comm he's an ordinary guy. But the point is is that he's in this structure which mirrors the tripods, which mirrors the alien invaders. So right from the opening shot, he's there in a cab, hundreds of feet up in the air, just like it you would be a is if you were a Martian on a Martian war machine. And so right there we're fusing the experience of
Gareth (54:45.41)
Yes.
Jett Loe (54:59.974)
being an aggressor and those that are on the receiving end of the aggression, right? And we talked about this. So war of the in back in the day, War of the Worlds fuses that horror of a Bond populace. This is during the may shot during the Iraq war in the aftermath of 911. You have the horror of what's it like being attacked combined with what if you were the person that's doing the attacking. And in fact there's it's it's there was one on the nose element of that in which his son is doing a report or his daughter, I think it's his son. It could be wrong.
Doing a report on the on what's happening with the French occupation of Algeria. So it's a really, really interesting thing. An examination of the horror of what Americans felt on September eleventh and then their desire for revenge. I think it's a it's a gr a a great film. I'm surprised it's so low on your list.
Gareth (55:42.539)
It's powerful. Well, we'll see when we do our annual ranking episode of all of Spielberg's films, we'll see if it's Nice here. OK, so it's good. Yeah, yeah. My my number nine and I'm looking at my list here, I almost want to take nine, eight, seven and six as a job lot. If I may do that, may I do that? May I experiment with that?
Jett Loe (55:53.277)
No, we're gonna do an annual ranking of all of our episodes. This this episode, by the way, is this is episode three hundred and thirty three. So we've been doing it for a while.
Jett Loe (56:11.654)
You can, but American listeners I don't know if they'll be familiar with the term job lots.
Gareth (56:15.39)
term job lot. What would you call it? What would you call it? A package, a package deal. Because these are films about conflict and the futility of zero sub games, bigotry and revenge and the impact of that in the lives of the innocent. Number nine is West Side Story, which I
cannot believe that you put it so low on your list. My disbelief, I like, they're both great films. They're both great films. But the Robert Wise one does not begin with a shot of how poor people's neighborhoods are being demolished to make way for Lincoln Center. And does not heighten the fact that both the Jets and the Sharks
Jett Loe (56:49.254)
I like Robert Wise. I'm a Robert Wise stan.
Gareth (57:14.198)
are suffering as a result of economic oppression. So West Side Story, number eight, Munich. Only if you do it as a job lot. We're doing a job lot, package. Munich.
Jett Loe (57:22.162)
Can I say anything about West Side's story? And I already already did.
Jett Loe (57:27.8)
yeah, okay. Are you gonna start calling you're gonna start calling me governor here? What Okay, I because of you, because I love you and I and I respect your opinions on lots of things, especially the WNBA. I am going to I will rewatch for you West Side Story. All right, let's move on with your job lot here.
Gareth (57:33.944)
Hehehehehe
Yes.
Gareth (57:42.925)
Yes.
Gareth (57:48.527)
West Side Story, okay, great. Munich, one of the fact that Munich even exists, that it was made at the time that it was made also post 9 11, having the audacity to end with an image of the Twin Towers and to be a US American film made by the quintessential US American director and to be naming the horror.
of what happens when people use violence to achieve political ends, whether it is the state or non-state actors and also not just the futility, but the perpetuation of further horror by deciding to engage in revenge rather than accountability. And it manages to have these incredible James Bond set pieces in it that are better than anything in pretty much any James Bond film except Quantum of Solace. And clearly Spielberg's cinematic prophecy is underway because of course, who's in Munich, but
the person who had not yet been cast as the next James Bond. Shindra's List at number seven. I do think we should do an episode on it. So let's leave that to the side for now. And Empire of the Sun, another one of the convergences of divergence of divergent convergence between us. I remember seeing it. I was 12 years old, so probably around the same age as Christian Bale's character in the film.
Jett Loe (58:51.728)
Okay.
Jett Loe (58:55.74)
Gareth (59:08.29)
The collision between a child's eye view of awe and wonder and the utter powerlessness of being caught up in these monstrous circumstances is extraordinary. West Side Story, Munich, Schindler's List and Empire of the Sun, let's call them the, what do we call it, the Spielbergian conflict quadrilateral.
Jett Loe (59:33.83)
That's that that's a course I'm not taking at the local commun at the local community college. It's I'm not.
Gareth (59:36.524)
I'd love to hear your... Well, you should. You should teach it at the local community college. What's your nine through six?
Jett Loe (59:43.677)
You know, Empire of the Sun. Empire of the Sun. I appreciate it. Maybe this is to me, this is like your version of Temple of Doom where you saw it at the right age. as an adult, it's just structurally s and almost all Spielwork films work. And I feel this one does not work. We talked about this in the earlier show, right? It's very Yeah, and it holds up for you. Well, that's great.
Gareth (01:00:00.857)
Hmm. I watched it again about four years ago. But maybe, maybe I didn't think I was that much younger than you.
Jett Loe (01:00:08.386)
you know, you have a childlike sense of wonder, which which I do not envy but I admire. that the Empi Empire of the Sun
it's clear they just cut out a huge amount out of the the prison camp sequence. So the film is structurally really unbalanced. Normally Spielberg's films are so well structured and so well cut within the scenes are so well cut within the scene and then overall structure is so great. Empire of the Sun, it kind of comes across as a as a mess. So something something happened there. And again, we talked about this before. You've got actors that normally would headline a picture and they've only got two lines because obviously
Everything was, you know, was cut to shreds as they were trying to make the film work. I'm maybe if it had been like four hours. What number should am I on now? Am I a number? I'm on number eight. I don't have I have no job lots. My War of the Worlds. It was only minutes ago. Eight, seven, and six are not a job lot. They're all totally different. My number eight. My number eight, and this is influenced, it's interesting.
Gareth (01:00:53.228)
Your... What was your number nine? Remem- Remind me your number nine. Okay, you've done it. So your number... Yeah. Eight, seven, and six.
Gareth (01:01:07.949)
Hit me.
Jett Loe (01:01:14.438)
what number eight is to me because he manifests the idea of the process of making eight in a later film, which is higher ranked on my list. So my number eight is E.T. the extraterrestrial.
Gareth (01:01:30.816)
not a convergence of divergence.
Jett Loe (01:01:32.998)
Now here's the thing with E.T. He makes another film many years after E.T. in which creatures of great power give a gift for one day to another character, and they're able to reproduce a home and reproduce.
Gareth (01:01:51.192)
It's a supermarket sweep episode where Dale Winton tells you you've got 10 minutes to buy whatever you like in the store and you won't be charged.
Jett Loe (01:02:00.005)
I I didn't you have to redo that. I didn't hear what that was. You're going back you going trying to do the hardcore British references there. The audience won't they won't they won't. So
Gareth (01:02:04.014)
Okay, no, it's alright.
Yes.
Creature's a great power.
Jett Loe (01:02:14.29)
A boy gets an incredible gift in which these creatures, the robots from the future, Mecca, whatever you want call them, in the film AI, Colonel, Artificial Intelligence, they give spoilers for this, they give the the child, robot David, a gift of having his mother back for one day in his home. And that to me is a symbolic representation of Spielberg making E.T. Because in E.T., you watch it.
It's so powerful because it feels like a recovered memory. Spielberg is manifesting his childhood through art. Do you know the extended version that they re-release is exactly two hours long? You know, it's here's a movie, two hours exactly. Just like there's only a certain number of hours in the day David has to be with his mother. Here's the two hours of a reproduced childhood. And it's beautiful. His love of childhood, his love of children if is infused in every single frame.
Gareth (01:02:57.102)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (01:03:10.172)
Famously in E. T. It's why it's my number eight. It's great. I am not gonna go see it again because then it's gonna change all the numbers.
Gareth (01:03:13.366)
You may, you may, you may observe I haven't mentioned it yet. So I'm not going to say anything. I'm not going to say anything else. I'm not going to say, I'm not going to say anything else about it just for the moment. What's your number seven?
Jett Loe (01:03:19.169)
it may be your number zero. Okay.
Ha ha
My number seven, dear listeners, Gareth. It's a deeply, deeply unsettling film. It's one of the few films in which you could argue that it has a real downbeat ending, because our protagonist doesn't succeed. And it the talk about fantasies or manifesting childhood. This is about retreating into fantasy. Our hero thinks he succeeded. He thinks he's beaten the bad guy and is helped by his his ex-wife.
But it's spoilers, it's all for naught. It's all a fantasy in his head. and that's 2002's minority report.
And of course, what I'm referring to here is that there is no happy ending in this film. Tom Cruiser's captured two thirds of the way through. The camera pushes in on him as Tim Blake Nelson asks to himself, I wonder what happens when these people are like, you know, when they're what's going on in their minds? He doesn't sound like that. I don't know what that voice is, but he's asking, Wow, Jet Lowe, Impressionist.
Jett Loe (01:04:29.362)
But he's asking what's going on in their mind? And then of course, and then the camera pushes in. So this is telling us the whole last quarter of the film, third of the film, is a fantasy. And it's really interesting. It's a very adult film. But then once you go into the fantasy, it becomes, and this is a homage to Spielberg's early career, right? It becomes a Colombo episode full of all the tropes of like seventies TV detective shows, including the classic where the killer Max von Zidau or Zidow
reveals a manner of a death and another character, Tom Cruise's ex wife goes, I never said he was drowned or whatever it was. and so it becomes like a T V show, very intentionally, very clever and very sad.
Gareth (01:04:58.062)
Well, there's also the, yeah, there's also the, well, yeah, and there's the trope of going and visiting a mysterious person in her greenhouse while she's taking cuttings from plants. so, well, it's Louis Smith in the actual thing, but who was it supposed to be? Audrey Hepburn? What's it supposed well, I like Louis.
Jett Loe (01:05:13.352)
Do you know who that was supposed to be?
Jett Loe (01:05:18.192)
It was supposed to be Merrill Street.
Gareth (01:05:22.662)
And the so you're saying that Lois Smith, that the appearance of Lois Smith and Max von Sydow in Minority Report are both figments of Tom Cruise's imagination.
Jett Loe (01:05:32.432)
No. No, no, that scene takes place before he's captured.
Gareth (01:05:36.312)
Thank you for your correction of the chronology. I'm interested in your take. Well, you didn't mention the garden scene prior to that. I remember that. So that's an interesting take. Maybe the film is better. Maybe the film is better if I go back and watch it through that lens. What's your number six?
Jett Loe (01:05:39.912)
Thank you for listening, Gareth.
Jett Loe (01:05:54.675)
Mind number six. Now this is interesting because you know, films come out, they do well, you think about the critical reaction, and then years later you realize that the critical reaction has changed. My memory, and maybe I'm wrong here, is that my number six film was not cons it was it was clearly a c a box office hit, but that it wasn't considered a big deal in terms of it was considered a big deal for technical reasons, but it wasn't considered a big deal like, this is a good Spielberg film.
And that's Jurassic Park. My memory is a lot of critics thought, well, this is fine, but it's coming out at the same time as roughly as Schindler's List. Like that that's that's that's the big film, and that's why Jurassic Park is so thin or not as strong, is because his his mind was on Schindler's List. Now, of course, everyone thinks Jurassic Park is a is a masterpiece. It wasn't quite you know, this the same. I think maybe only got three stars from Roger Ebert. I could be wrong and go go ahead and check check that. But it's a film that has grown because it works so well. If you look at g because modern films are so
Gareth (01:06:30.2)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (01:06:52.764)
Tired and thin when it comes to this kind of motion picture, but Jurassic Park stands out. But it's it's a it's a fantastic adventure and it's a great example of how you know you can you can go back and and see what works and what doesn't and bring things up to another level. Because and what I'm referring to here is the end of the film. The original end of the film that was shown to people, though it didn't make it to the distribution stage, the wide distribution stage. You know, the original end of the film.
has the Velociraptors killed by a skeleton, killed by the skeleton of the T-Rex falling on them, which is a which is great. That's a great idea. And that's why we see that skeleton of a T Rex so prominently in the movies, because that's gonna come down and kind of be a, you know, twist ending that the skeleton kills the Velociraptors. But while they made the film and they were getting reactions, they saw how the audience perked up, right? Look whenever the T Rex was on screen. So they they re-jiggered it and they
put the T-Rex at the end, killing the Velociraptors. And that reappearance of this, like, you know, ooh, a favorite cameo appearance by our our boy the T-Rex, as he roars with when dinosaurs rule the earth, the the the banner falling down, just, you know, it just punches the film up a a huge notch. It would have been a big hit without that, but that gives you something where you leave the theater energized, much like in
Gareth (01:08:03.278)
Mm-hmm.
Jett Loe (01:08:17.452)
what's the film with the guy that played Leonard Bernstein, that guy. you know, and they all they all they all lose their memory. You know the movie I'm talking about here? They all go they go it's like they go to a wedding, they're in there in Las Vegas and they get drugged. The hangover, yeah. They get drugged by the guy that's now doing that gardening show.
Gareth (01:08:23.672)
Bradley Cooper.
Gareth (01:08:32.504)
The hangover?
Jett Loe (01:08:37.328)
the Hangover. The Hangover has an ending credit montage of photos where you see what they got up to during that night, which is hysterical and leaves the audience laughing. It's the same thing with Jurassic Park. It has a real big punch up. Anyway, that's my number six, Jurassic Park. Go see it.
Gareth (01:08:50.104)
I got to say, I started watching a bit of it yesterday and I think it may be, it's one of those films I may never be able to fully enjoy because I remember the hype for Jurassic Park was, you know, beyond anything other than probably the Tim Burton Batman film, but I didn't get to see it for about six weeks after it was released. And so by the time I saw it,
There was nobody in the theatre to enjoy it with and I think that always affected my enjoyment of it and I'd heard everything about it by the time I'd seen it. So it's hard to watch that film and get the sense of awe and excitement that a lot of people had the first time around. But as with all your opinions, I'll take it under advisement.
Jett Loe (01:09:40.006)
And that's why you love Jurassic Park three.
Gareth (01:09:43.47)
I don't, I wouldn't say that's the case. Are we at number, we're at number five? We're into the top fives? I think we are. Are we gonna do a fourth episode or are we gonna rattle on through?
Jett Loe (01:09:51.184)
Are we at number five? We are at number five.
Jett Loe (01:09:56.637)
Boy, okay, I'm gonna here's the thing. I'm asking the dear listener right now, though they can respond to my words, I will never hear them. But maybe I can get the psychic energy from the future coming, you know, from from the future into us. Should we s yes. sometimes the show feels a little bit like pre-crime, especially where you're ranking war horse.
Gareth (01:10:08.652)
Yes. Pre-cog.
Gareth (01:10:16.366)
I think you're going send a question out into the future and hope an answer will come back to you.
Jett Loe (01:10:21.134)
Anyway, do it.
Jett Loe (01:10:28.07)
Yes, I'm gonna do I'm gonna do that right now. This is also the plot of like the the worst outer limits episode. It's got like Lena Dimoy in it, it's the early early sixties. Okay. Sure. Shall we stop here? And then we'll do a fourth one. This was supposed to be one episode, dear listeners. It's gonna be broken up. Okay, folks.
Gareth (01:10:29.282)
Do it, do it, do it.
Gareth (01:10:47.136)
I know it was. Unless, unless we just, do you think we could just name the top five and just go through them in a, in a, in a concise way? All right.
Jett Loe (01:10:53.424)
No, I think we got to do it another episode. We're gonna stop here. Dear listeners, we're listener supported. Don't forget to to go to patreon.com slash the film talk. Go to Facebook.com slash the film talk to participate in our conversations. I love talking with you, Gareth. I'm very curious about your top whatever we're at. Whether do the top five. Okay, we're gonna okay. We're gonna keep recording. We're just gonna pause for a second here and then we're gonna power through top five and we'll release that episode in a few days. Dear listeners.
Gareth (01:10:59.138)
We are.
Gareth (01:11:12.728)
Top five, top five.
Jett Loe (01:11:24.23)
I don't think I've ever said anything more heartfelt. Thank you so much for your indulgence. It means the world to me, and dare I say it, Gareth Warhorse Higgins over here.
Gareth (01:11:36.142)
I have, I don't hate Jurassic Park, but I have indeed been Gareth Higginson. We'll keep talking.
Jett Loe (01:11:39.12)
Hates Jurassic Park.
Hates it.
Jett Loe (01:11:49.618)
Real soon.